Archived Thread

To: ps.com=20
href=3D"mailto:4D_Cubing@yahoogroups.com">4D_Cubing@yahoogroups.com <=
/DIV>

Sent: Wednesday, December 25, 2013=
8:29=20
AM

Subject: Re: [MC4D] RE: MPUltimate=
=20
1.5

=20

Andrey,

style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: =
arial, helvetica, clean, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-SIZE: 13px">Th=
ank=20
you for adding the new puzzle so quickly. I've added five new entries in =
the=20
wiki page:

style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: =
arial, helvetica, clean, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-SIZE: 13px">=20
href=3D"http://wiki.superliminal.com/wiki/MPUlt_Records" rel=3Dnofollow=20
target=3D_blank>http://wiki.superliminal.com/wiki/MPUlt_Records
P>
style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: =
arial, helvetica, clean, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-SIZE: 13px">un=
der=20
4D: 8-cell for the five new mirror cubes. I added your solutions to Mirro=
r_A=20
and Mirror_D. Feel free to make the records more accurate.

style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: =
arial, helvetica, clean, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-SIZE: 13px">R> p>
style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: =
arial, helvetica, clean, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-SIZE: 13px">Me=
linda,=20
I think Mirror_Z is not trivial at all. The 3D counterpart is the Rubik's=
Cube=20
with 180-degree turns only (half-turn cube), because the 2D inversion is =
a=20
180-degree rotation. It's much simpler than the original Rubik's Cube, bu=
t=20
nobody would say it's trivial.

style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: =
arial, helvetica, clean, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-SIZE: 13px">R>

style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: =
arial, helvetica, clean, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-SIZE: 13px">Na=
n

------=_NextPart_000_002A_01CF016D.E74B2B80--

From: Melinda Green <melinda@superliminal.com>
Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2013 03:38:24 -0800
Subject: Re: [MC4D] RE: MPUltimate 1.5

--------------040700030800000600020803
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Wow, Andrey, this is so wonderful it feels like Christmas! Wait a
minute,... it *is* Christmas!!! Of course the mirror Z is my favorite.
You can see how simple it is by doing a full scramble where you'll see
that the stickers move only within 3 independent orbits. As Nan says,
it's not trivial, but it's certainly much smaller than a lot of other 4D
cube puzzles. Your animations are perfect too. Thank you so much for
these shiny new toys!!!

-Melinda

On 12/24/2013 9:49 PM, andreyastrelin@yahoo.com wrote:
>
>
> > Hey, I just had a thought. What if clicking anywhere on a cell
> caused it to completely invert? IOW, reflect
>
> > through its center. That won't work for all puzzles, but it should
> work for a lot. Maybe most.
> >
> > I'd also like to suggest that that reflectable puzzles not require
> modifier keys and not include rotations, or at
>
> > least that those puzzles be distinct from ones that include multiple
> move types.
>
>
> Ready :)
>
>
> https://www.dropbox.com/s/xm5py39jec0nl1q/MPUlt1.53.zip
>
>
> Puzzle 3^4_(Mirror_Z) has only central symmetries of cells.
>
> And I've removed 180-degrees rotations from puzzles A,B,C. Now regular
> click in face centers will work the same way as ctrl-shift-click. In
> puzzle D regular click in face center will rotate cell and
> ctrl-shift-click will perform cell reflection.
>

--------------040700030800000600020803
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

">

Wow, Andrey, this is so wonderful it feels like Christmas! Wait a
minute,... it *is* Christmas!!! Of course the mirror Z is my
favorite. You can see how simple it is by doing a full scramble
where you'll see that the stickers move only within 3 independent
orbits. As Nan says, it's not trivial, but it's certainly much
smaller than a lot of other 4D cube puzzles. Your animations are
perfect too. Thank you so much for these shiny new toys!!!

-Melinda

On 12/24/2013 9:49 PM,
ahoo.com">andreyastrelin@yahoo.com wrote:

> Hey, I just had a thought. What if clicking anywhere on a
cell caused it to completely invert? IOW, reflect

> through its center. That won't work for all puzzles, but
it should work for a lot. Maybe most.

>

> I'd also like to suggest that that reflectable puzzles not
require modifier keys and not include rotations, or at

sans-serif;font-size:13px;font-style:normal;background-color:transparent;">=
>
least that those puzzles be distinct from ones that include
multiple move types.

sans-serif;font-size:13px;font-style:normal;background-color:transparent;">=

sans-serif;font-size:13px;font-style:normal;background-color:transparent;">=
Ready
:)

sans-ser
if;font-size:13px;font-style:normal;background-color:transparent;">=

sans-serif;font-size:13px;font-style:normal;background-color:transparent;">=
moz-do-not-send=3D"true" rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank"
href=3D"https://www.dropbox.com/s/xm5py39jec0nl1q/MPUlt1.53.zip">=
https://www.dropbox.com/s/xm5py39jec0nl1q/MPUlt1.53.zip

sans-serif;font-size:13px;font-style:normal;background-color:transparent;">=

sans-serif;font-size:13px;font-style:normal;background-color:transparent;">=
Puzzle
3^4_(Mirror_Z) has only central symmetries of cells.

sans-serif;font-size:13px;font-style:normal;background-color:transparent;">=
And
I've removed 180-degrees rotations from puzzles A,B,C. Now
regular click in face centers will work the same way as
ctrl-shift-click. In puzzle D regular click=C2=A0in face center wil=
l
rotate cell and ctrl-shift-click will perform cell reflection.

--------------040700030800000600020803--

From: <mananself@gmail.com>
Date: 26 Dec 2013 13:10:20 -0800
Subject: Re: [MC4D] RE: MPUltimate 1.5

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From: Melinda Green <melinda@superliminal.com>
Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2013 14:06:33 -0800
Subject: Re: [MC4D] RE: MPUltimate 1.5

Ready for the 120 Z then? Or perhaps the 24 Z?
What do you think, Andrey?

From: Melinda Green <melinda@superliminal.com>
Date: 27 Dec 2013 08:51:18 -0800
Subject: Re: [MC4D] RE: MPUltimate 1.5

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From: <mananself@gmail.com>
Date: 27 Dec 2013 10:26:54 -0800
Subject: Re: [MC4D] RE: MPUltimate 1.5

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From: <andreyastrelin@yahoo.com>
Date: 27 Dec 2013 11:26:38 -0800
Subject: Re: [MC4D] RE: MPUltimate 1.5

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From: Melinda Green <melinda@superliminal.com>
Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2013 12:59:04 -0800
Subject: Re: [MC4D] RE: MPUltimate 1.5

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Wow, the mirror 24-cell is neat! I love how it moves a bunch of
individual pyramidal tips around. I didn't expect that. I also don't
quite understand why inverting a non-center cell doesn't collapse it to
a point. Slowing the twist speed way down, it appears that 3 groups of
stickers collapse into 3 separate points.

The mirror truncated 24-cell is very beautiful, with its cubic faces
floating around like tiny Rubik's cubes. And the mirror 120-cell is of
course terrifying to behold.

Very nice work, Andrey!
-Melinda

On 12/27/2013 11:26 AM, andreyastrelin@yahoo.com wrote:
>
>
> I've added Z-mirrored 24-cell and 120-cell, and also 48-cell and
> truncated 24-cell.
>
>
> Andrey
>
>
> https://www.dropbox.com/s/b96ce6cbau4txd6/MPUlt_puzzles.txt
>
>
>
>

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Wow, the mirror 24-cell is neat! I love how it moves a bunch of
individual pyramidal tips around. I didn't expect that. I also don't
quite understand why inverting a non-center cell doesn't collapse it
to a point. Slowing the twist speed way down, it appears that 3
groups of stickers collapse into 3 separate points.

The mirror truncated 24-cell is very beautiful, with its cubic faces
floating around like tiny Rubik's cubes. And the mirror 120-cell is
of course terrifying to behold.

Very nice work, Andrey!

-Melinda

On 12/27/2013 11:26 AM,
andreyastrelin@yahoo.com wrote:

I've added Z-mirrored 24-cell and 120-cell, and also 48-cell
and truncated 24-cell.

Andrey

href="https://www.dropbox.com/s/b96ce6cbau4txd6/MPUlt_puzzles.txt">https://www.dropbox.com/s/b96ce6cbau4txd6/MPUlt_puzzles.txt

--------------010001060500020708020409--

From: <mananself@gmail.com>
Date: 18 Jan 2014 11:42:05 -0800
Subject: Re: [MC4D] RE: MPUltimate 1.5

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From: <andreyastrelin@yahoo.com>
Date: 18 Jan 2014 14:26:50 -0800
Subject: Re: [MC4D] RE: MPUltimate 1.5

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From: <mananself@gmail.com>
Date: 18 Jan 2014 17:17:33 -0800
Subject: Re: [MC4D] RE: MPUltimate 1.5

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From: <andreyastrelin@yahoo.com>
Date: 18 Jan 2014 20:30:47 -0800
Subject: Re: [MC4D] RE: MPUltimate 1.5

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From: <andreyastrelin@yahoo.com>
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2014 18:01:35 +0100 (CET)
Subject: Re: [MC4D] RE: MPUltimate 1.5

------=_Part_375091108_158670266.1390150895738
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Hi all
I've just solved the 4X4 cube.
It's more complicated than the 3X3 but I wrote macros to help resolution.
I join a file which contains macros. If anybody 's interested, He can look at them
and test them on a reseted cube.
Now the 5X5 is my next goal.
Have a nice day.
Claude
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From: Melinda Green <melinda@superliminal.com>
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2014 17:08:42 -0800
Subject: Re: [MC4D] RE: MPUltimate 1.5

--------------080803000401080107040105
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If there exist any puzzles that humans really can't solve, I don't know
of them. Do you?

I am surprised that the 120Z may be more difficult than the 24-cell
version, both because the more typical 24-cell puzzles are so hard and
because the 120-cell generates no real headaches; it just takes a very
long time. If this is true, then it makes me wonder whether large
Z-cubes might also be difficult in more ways than just piece-finding.
5^4Z anyone?

-Melinda

On 1/18/2014 5:17 PM, mananself@gmail.com wrote:
>
>
> I have to say, before knowing that you have solved 2C, I didn't even
> plan to work on it. I have no idea about the orbits of 2C on 120Z yet.
> Maybe one can find an algorithm by first flipping a cell, and then use
> an even number of moves to solve the 2C pieces, and observe the 3C
> parity changes.
>
>
> After all, the problem of orbit parity is a commutative problem,
> meaning A B = B A in terms of orbit parity. It's just like Lights Out
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lights_Out_(game)
>
> but with a complicated geometry. I'm still positive that it's solvable
> by human.
>
>
> Nan
>
>
>
>

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If there exist any puzzles that humans really can't solve, I don't
know of them. Do you?

I am surprised that the 120Z may be more difficult than the 24-cell
version, both because the more typical 24-cell puzzles are so hard
and because the 120-cell generates no real headaches; it just takes
a very long time. If this is true, then it makes me wonder whether
large Z-cubes might also be difficult in more ways than just
piece-finding. 5^4Z anyone?

-Melinda

On 1/18/2014 5:17 PM,
mananself@gmail.com wrote:

I have to say, before knowing that you have solved 2C, I didn't
even plan to work on it. I have no idea about the orbits of 2C
on 120Z yet. Maybe one can find an algorithm by first flipping a
cell, and then use an even number of moves to solve the 2C
pieces, and observe the 3C parity changes.

After
all, the problem of orbit parity is a commutative problem,
meaning A B = B A in terms of orbit parity. It's just like
Lights Out

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lights_Out_(game)

but with a complicated geometry.
I'm still positive that it's solvable by human.

Nan

--------------080803000401080107040105--

From: <andreyastrelin@yahoo.com>
Date: 19 Jan 2014 21:17:10 -0800
Subject: Re: [MC4D] RE: MPUltimate 1.5

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From: <mananself@gmail.com>
Date: 20 Jan 2014 23:03:25 -0800
Subject: Re: [MC4D] RE: MPUltimate 1.5

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--9nlWnTS9ocNmxdhsK3FKVLWiM6a5jwOaA8HvrLV--

From: Melinda Green <melinda@superliminal.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2014 14:15:27 -0800
Subject: Re: [MC4D] RE: MPUltimate 1.5

--------------000903000805090303020304
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Andrey, unfortunately I can't find the puzzle anywhere, but the
description sounds ugly. So you don't think that you could solve dotto
if you had to? You solved the other sporadic simple group puzzles, and
we all suspect that you have magic powers.

Nan, I'm not considering puzzles to be hard just because they're big.
The more I think about it, the more I'm starting to suspect that "hard"
is a fuzzy and subjective concept. "Hard for its size" is another
concept that I thought made sense, but now I want to include some form
of elegance criterion as well, so I think that I'll just let go of the
concept altogether and just think in terms of favorites instead.

So here is a question for everyone: Of all the puzzles in the world,
which is the one that you are most glad for simply existing? My answer
is fairly clear though I don't want to influence anyone by naming it up
front.

-Melinda

On 1/19/2014 9:17 PM, andreyastrelin@yahoo.com wrote:
>
>
> > If there exist any puzzles that humans really can't solve, I don't
> know of them. Do you?
>
>
> What about "dotto" game from this page:
>
> http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=puzzles-simple-groups-at-play
>
> It's the game in 24 dimensions!
>
>
> Andrey
>
>
>
>

--------------000903000805090303020304
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Andrey, unfortunately I can't find the puzzle anywhere, but the
description sounds ugly. So you don't think that you could solve
dotto if you had to? You solved the other sporadic simple group
puzzles, and we all suspect that you have magic powers.

Nan, I'm not considering puzzles to be hard just because they're
big. The more I think about it, the more I'm starting to suspect
that "hard" is a fuzzy and subjective concept. "Hard for its size"
is another concept that I thought made sense, but now I want to
include some form of elegance criterion as well, so I think that
I'll just let go of the concept altogether and just think in terms
of favorites instead.

So here is a question for everyone: Of all the puzzles in the world,
which is the one that you are most glad for simply existing? My
answer is fairly clear though I don't want to influence anyone by
naming it up front.

-Melinda

On 1/19/2014 9:17 PM,
andreyastrelin@yahoo.com wrote:

> If there exist any puzzles that humans really can't solve,
I don't know of them. Do you?

What about "dotto" game from this page:

href="http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=puzzles-simple-groups-at-play">http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=puzzles-simple-groups-at-play

It's the game in 24 dimensions!

Andrey

--------------000903000805090303020304--

From: Roice Nelson <roice3@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2014 16:55:21 -0600
Subject: Re: [MC4D] RE: MPUltimate 1.5

--001a11c36772fdf4ab04f0970477
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Feels impossible to pick one, so I'll cheat and just narrow to 3 favorites.
I'm glad they all exist.

- Rubik's Cube, the root of all our permutation puzzle creativity.
- MC4D, especially the superliminal implementation. Dimensional analogy
is awesome.
- Andrey's Magic Hyperbolic Tile {6,3,3}: I can't say it is my favorite
to solve (because I haven't), but the abstractions are fantastic. Jump a
dimension, change the geometry, and let the puzzle faces become a shape
you'd never expect.

Even narrowing to 3 is difficult because there have been so many really
nice puzzles here over the years. Nan's 11-cell is great, and I like the
MagicTile KQ puzzle too. I can say this... I'm super partial to
permutation puzzles, especially those with some kind of mathematical
abstraction that makes them impossible to manufacture in the physical
world. In other words, all the stuff we discuss here :D

Looking forward to hearing Melinda's and other's favorites!

Roice

On Wed, Jan 22, 2014 at 4:15 PM, Melinda Green wrote:

>
>
> Andrey, unfortunately I can't find the puzzle anywhere, but the
> description sounds ugly. So you don't think that you could solve dotto if
> you had to? You solved the other sporadic simple group puzzles, and we all
> suspect that you have magic powers.
>
> Nan, I'm not considering puzzles to be hard just because they're big. The
> more I think about it, the more I'm starting to suspect that "hard" is a
> fuzzy and subjective concept. "Hard for its size" is another concept that I
> thought made sense, but now I want to include some form of elegance
> criterion as well, so I think that I'll just let go of the concept
> altogether and just think in terms of favorites instead.
>
> So here is a question for everyone: Of all the puzzles in the world, which
> is the one that you are most glad for simply existing? My answer is fairly
> clear though I don't want to influence anyone by naming it up front.
>
> -Melinda
>
>
> On 1/19/2014 9:17 PM, andreyastrelin@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> > If there exist any puzzles that humans really can't solve, I don't know
> of them. Do you?
>
>
> What about "dotto" game from this page:
>
>
> http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=puzzles-simple-groups-at-play
>
> It's the game in 24 dimensions!
>
>
> Andrey
>
>
>
>
>
>

--001a11c36772fdf4ab04f0970477
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Feels impossible to pick one, so I'll cheat and just n=
arrow to 3 favorites. =A0I'm glad they all exist.

Rubi=
k's Cube, the root of all our permutation puzzle creativity.

i>
MC4D, especially the superliminal implementation. =A0Dimensional analogy is=
awesome.

Andrey's Magic Hyperbolic Tile {6,3,3}: =A0I can't say it =
is my favorite to solve (because I haven't), but the abstractions are f=
antastic. =A0Jump a dimension, change the geometry, and let the puzzle face=
s become a shape you'd never expect.

Even narrowing to 3 is difficult beca=
use there have been so many really nice puzzles here over the years. =A0Nan=
's 11-cell is great, and I like the MagicTile KQ puzzle too. =A0I can s=
ay this... I'm super partial to permutation puzzles, especially those w=
ith some kind of mathematical abstraction that makes them impossible to man=
ufacture in the physical world. =A0In other words, all the stuff we discuss=
here :D

Looking for=
ward to hearing Melinda's and other's favorites!

"gmail_extra">

Roice

"gmail_extra">

On Wed, Jan 22, 2014 at 4:15 PM, Melinda=
Green <rget=3D"_blank">melinda@superliminal.com> wrote:

left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;p=
adding-left:1ex">

=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20

=20=20
=20=20=20=20
=20=20

Andrey, unfortunately I can't find the puzzle anywhere, but the
description sounds ugly. So you don't think that you could solve
dotto if you had to? You solved the other sporadic simple group
puzzles, and we all suspect that you have magic powers.

Nan, I'm not considering puzzles to be hard just because they'r=
e
big. The more I think about it, the more I'm starting to suspect
that "hard" is a fuzzy and subjective concept. "Hard for=
its size"
is another concept that I thought made sense, but now I want to
include some form of elegance criterion as well, so I think that
I'll just let go of the concept altogether and just think in terms
of favorites instead.

So here is a question for everyone: Of all the puzzles in the world,
which is the one that you are most glad for simply existing? My
answer is fairly clear though I don't want to influence anyone by
naming it up front.

-Melinda

On 1/19/2014 9:17 PM,
andreya=
strelin@yahoo.com wrote:

=20=20=20=20=20=20
=20=20=20=20=20=20

> If there exist any puzzles that humans really can't solve=
,
I don't know of them. Do you?

What about "dotto" game from this page:

cle.cfm?id=3Dpuzzles-simple-groups-at-play" target=3D"_blank">http://www.sc=
ientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=3Dpuzzles-simple-groups-at-play

It's the game in 24 dimensions!

Andrey

=20=20=20=20=20=20

=20=20

--001a11c36772fdf4ab04f0970477--

From: Melinda Green <melinda@superliminal.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2014 15:42:34 -0800
Subject: Re: [MC4D] RE: MPUltimate 1.5

--------------090806090203030108040807
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Great list, Roice! I wonder if it's too much to assume that most of us
would list the original Rubik's cube at or near the top, so perhaps that
one shouldn't count? I wonder if the puzzle would exist now if Professor
Rubik hadn't been the one to invent it. I'm guessing that it was
inevitable, but who knows. Once the 3D puzzle existed, I'm certain that
4D versions were inevitable.

I hadn't been considering particular implementations as
favorites--really just thinking in the platonic sense--but
implementations are important as well. In that sense I think that my
current favorite is the rhombic dodecahedral puzzle
that Brandon so
graciously gave me. Searching for photos to share just now I realize
that that there are many that look very much like mine but this one in
particular is very special. The creator obviously went far beyond what
was needed to create a successful product, and that appeals to me a lot.
Even the inner working parts are as lovingly crafted as the visible
parts. I suggest that we restrict our favorites to just the platonic
sense, but feel free to list favorite implementations too if you like.

Setting aside the cubic puzzles, I'm glad that you mention the
hyperbolic {6,3,3}. It is a thing of beauty and I suspect not at all
inevitable. The others you mention are wonderful as well, but the
difficulty of this exercise lies in picking one. So everyone else, feel
free to call out cubes or physical puzzles too, just please pick one
special favorite if you can.

-Melinda

On 1/22/2014 2:55 PM, Roice Nelson wrote:
>
>
> Feels impossible to pick one, so I'll cheat and just narrow to 3
> favorites. I'm glad they all exist.
>
> * Rubik's Cube, the root of all our permutation puzzle creativity.
> * MC4D, especially the superliminal implementation. Dimensional
> analogy is awesome.
> * Andrey's Magic Hyperbolic Tile {6,3,3}: I can't say it is my
> favorite to solve (because I haven't), but the abstractions are
> fantastic. Jump a dimension, change the geometry, and let the
> puzzle faces become a shape you'd never expect.
>
> Even narrowing to 3 is difficult because there have been so many
> really nice puzzles here over the years. Nan's 11-cell is great, and
> I like the MagicTile KQ puzzle too. I can say this... I'm super
> partial to permutation puzzles, especially those with some kind of
> mathematical abstraction that makes them impossible to manufacture in
> the physical world. In other words, all the stuff we discuss here :D
>
> Looking forward to hearing Melinda's and other's favorites!
>
> Roice
>
>
> On Wed, Jan 22, 2014 at 4:15 PM, Melinda Green
> > wrote:
>
>
>
> Andrey, unfortunately I can't find the puzzle anywhere, but the
> description sounds ugly. So you don't think that you could solve
> dotto if you had to? You solved the other sporadic simple group
> puzzles, and we all suspect that you have magic powers.
>
> Nan, I'm not considering puzzles to be hard just because they're
> big. The more I think about it, the more I'm starting to suspect
> that "hard" is a fuzzy and subjective concept. "Hard for its size"
> is another concept that I thought made sense, but now I want to
> include some form of elegance criterion as well, so I think that
> I'll just let go of the concept altogether and just think in terms
> of favorites instead.
>
> So here is a question for everyone: Of all the puzzles in the
> world, which is the one that you are most glad for simply
> existing? My answer is fairly clear though I don't want to
> influence anyone by naming it up front.
>
> -Melinda
>
>
> On 1/19/2014 9:17 PM, andreyastrelin@yahoo.com
> wrote:
>>
>> > If there exist any puzzles that humans really can't solve, I
>> don't know of them. Do you?
>>
>>
>> What about "dotto" game from this page:
>>
>> http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=puzzles-simple-groups-at-play
>>
>> It's the game in 24 dimensions!
>>
>>
>> Andrey
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

--------------090806090203030108040807
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

http-equiv="Content-Type">

Great list, Roice! I wonder if it's too much to assume that most of
us would list the original Rubik's cube at or near the top, so
perhaps that one shouldn't count? I wonder if the puzzle would exist
now if Professor Rubik hadn't been the one to invent it. I'm
guessing that it was inevitable, but who knows. Once the 3D puzzle
existed, I'm certain that 4D versions were inevitable.

I hadn't been considering particular implementations as
favorites--really just thinking in the platonic sense--but
implementations are important as well. In that sense I think that my
current favorite is the href="http://www.china-magic-cube.com/goods.asp?gid=68">rhombic
dodecahedral puzzle that Brandon so graciously gave me.
Searching for photos to share just now I realize that that there are
many that look very much like mine but this one in particular is
very special. The creator obviously went far beyond what was needed
to create a successful product, and that appeals to me a lot. Even
the inner working parts are as lovingly crafted as the visible
parts. I suggest that we restrict our favorites to just the platonic
sense, but feel free to list favorite implementations too if you
like.

Setting aside the cubic puzzles, I'm glad that you mention the
hyperbolic {6,3,3}. It is a thing of beauty and I suspect not at all
inevitable. The others you mention are wonderful as well, but the
difficulty of this exercise lies in picking one. So everyone else,
feel free to call out cubes or physical puzzles too, just please
pick one special favorite if you can.

-Melinda

On 1/22/2014 2:55 PM, Roice Nelson
wrote:

cite="mid:CAEMuGXp2gbek7C7i7mv-2DGVySoy7wo+QFJmaDHARC1+72OOvw@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">

Feels impossible to pick one, so I'll cheat and
just narrow to 3 favorites. I'm glad they all exist.

Rubik's Cube, the root of all our permutation puzzle
creativity.

MC4D, especially the superliminal implementation.
Dimensional analogy is awesome.

Andrey's Magic Hyperbolic Tile {6,3,3}: I can't say
it is my favorite to solve (because I haven't), but the
abstractions are fantastic. Jump a dimension, change
the geometry, and let the puzzle faces become a shape
you'd never expect.

Even narrowing to 3 is difficult
because there have been so many really nice puzzles here
over the years. Nan's 11-cell is great, and I like the
MagicTile KQ puzzle too. I can say this... I'm super
partial to permutation puzzles, especially those with some
kind of mathematical abstraction that makes them impossible
to manufacture in the physical world. In other words, all
the stuff we discuss here :D

Looking forward to hearing Melinda's
and other's favorites!

Roice

On Wed, Jan 22, 2014 at 4:15 PM,
Melinda Green < moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:melinda@superliminal.com" target="_blank">melinda@superliminal.com>
wrote:

Andrey, unfortunately I can't find the puzzle
anywhere, but the description sounds ugly. So you
don't think that you could solve dotto if you had to?
You solved the other sporadic simple group puzzles,
and we all suspect that you have magic powers.

Nan, I'm not considering puzzles to be hard just
because they're big. The more I think about it, the
more I'm starting to suspect that "hard" is a fuzzy
and subjective concept. "Hard for its size" is another
concept that I thought made sense, but now I want to
include some form of elegance criterion as well, so I
think that I'll just let go of the concept altogether
and just think in terms of favorites instead.

So here is a question for everyone: Of all the puzzles
in the world, which is the one that you are most glad
for simply existing? My answer is fairly clear though
I don't want to influence anyone by naming it up
front.

-Melinda

On 1/19/2014 9:17 PM, moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:andreyastrelin@yahoo.com"
target="_blank">andreyastrelin@yahoo.com
wrote:

> If there exist any puzzles that humans
really can't solve, I don't know of them. Do
you?

What about "dotto" game from this page:

href="http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=puzzles-simple-groups-at-play"
target="_blank">http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=puzzles-simple-groups-at-play

It's the game in 24 dimensions!

Andrey

--------------090806090203030108040807--

From: "Eduard Baumann" <ed.baumann@bluewin.ch>
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2014 01:16:59 +0100
Subject: Re: [MC4D] RE: MPUltimate 1.5

------=_NextPart_000_0018_01CF17D8.D03012E0
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

For me it is clear:
My favorite is the whole collection of MagicTile.
Ed

----- Original Message -----=20
From: Melinda Green=20
To: 4D_Cubing@yahoogroups.com=20
Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2014 12:42 AM
Subject: Re: [MC4D] RE: MPUltimate 1.5

=20=20=20=20
Great list, Roice! I wonder if it's too much to assume that most of us wo=
uld list the original Rubik's cube at or near the top, so perhaps that one =
shouldn't count? I wonder if the puzzle would exist now if Professor Rubik =
hadn't been the one to invent it. I'm guessing that it was inevitable, but =
who knows. Once the 3D puzzle existed, I'm certain that 4D versions were in=
evitable.=20

I hadn't been considering particular implementations as favorites--really=
just thinking in the platonic sense--but implementations are important as =
well. In that sense I think that my current favorite is the rhombic dodecah=
edral puzzle that Brandon so graciously gave me. Searching for photos to sh=
are just now I realize that that there are many that look very much like mi=
ne but this one in particular is very special. The creator obviously went f=
ar beyond what was needed to create a successful product, and that appeals =
to me a lot. Even the inner working parts are as lovingly crafted as the vi=
sible parts. I suggest that we restrict our favorites to just the platonic =
sense, but feel free to list favorite implementations too if you like.

Setting aside the cubic puzzles, I'm glad that you mention the hyperbolic=
{6,3,3}. It is a thing of beauty and I suspect not at all inevitable. The =
others you mention are wonderful as well, but the difficulty of this exerci=
se lies in picking one. So everyone else, feel free to call out cubes or ph=
ysical puzzles too, just please pick one special favorite if you can.

-Melinda

On 1/22/2014 2:55 PM, Roice Nelson wrote:

Feels impossible to pick one, so I'll cheat and just narrow to 3 favori=
tes. I'm glad they all exist.=20
a.. Rubik's Cube, the root of all our permutation puzzle creativity.

b.. MC4D, especially the superliminal implementation. Dimensional an=
alogy is awesome.

c.. Andrey's Magic Hyperbolic Tile {6,3,3}: I can't say it is my fav=
orite to solve (because I haven't), but the abstractions are fantastic. Ju=
mp a dimension, change the geometry, and let the puzzle faces become a shap=
e you'd never expect.=20
Even narrowing to 3 is difficult because there have been so many really=
nice puzzles here over the years. Nan's 11-cell is great, and I like the =
MagicTile KQ puzzle too. I can say this... I'm super partial to permutatio=
n puzzles, especially those with some kind of mathematical abstraction that=
makes them impossible to manufacture in the physical world. In other word=
s, all the stuff we discuss here :D

Looking forward to hearing Melinda's and other's favorites!

Roice

On Wed, Jan 22, 2014 at 4:15 PM, Melinda Green m> wrote:

Andrey, unfortunately I can't find the puzzle anywhere, but the descr=
iption sounds ugly. So you don't think that you could solve dotto if you ha=
d to? You solved the other sporadic simple group puzzles, and we all suspec=
t that you have magic powers.

Nan, I'm not considering puzzles to be hard just because they're big.=
The more I think about it, the more I'm starting to suspect that "hard" is=
a fuzzy and subjective concept. "Hard for its size" is another concept tha=
t I thought made sense, but now I want to include some form of elegance cri=
terion as well, so I think that I'll just let go of the concept altogether =
and just think in terms of favorites instead.

So here is a question for everyone: Of all the puzzles in the world, =
which is the one that you are most glad for simply existing? My answer is f=
airly clear though I don't want to influence anyone by naming it up front.

-Melinda=20

On 1/19/2014 9:17 PM, andreyastrelin@yahoo.com wrote:

> If there exist any puzzles that humans really can't solve, I don'=
t know of them. Do you?

What about "dotto" game from this page:

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=3Dpuzzles-simple-g=
roups-at-play

It's the game in 24 dimensions!

Andrey

=20=20
------=_NextPart_000_0018_01CF17D8.D03012E0
Content-Type: text/html;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

>

For me it is clear:

My favorite is the whole collection of=
=20
MagicTile.

style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: =
0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">

----- Original Message -----

style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black">Fro=
m:=20
href=3D"mailto:melinda@superliminal.com">Melinda Green

To: ps.com=20
href=3D"mailto:4D_Cubing@yahoogroups.com">4D_Cubing@yahoogroups.com <=
/DIV>

Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2014 1=
2:42=20
AM

Subject: Re: [MC4D] RE: MPUltimate=
=20
1.5

=20

Great list, Roice! I wonder if it's too much to assume that most of us=
=20
would list the original Rubik's cube at or near the top, so perhaps that =
one=20
shouldn't count? I wonder if the puzzle would exist now if Professor Rubi=
k=20
hadn't been the one to invent it. I'm guessing that it was inevitable, bu=
t who=20
knows. Once the 3D puzzle existed, I'm certain that 4D versions were=20
inevitable.

I hadn't been considering particular implementations =
as=20
favorites--really just thinking in the platonic sense--but implementation=
s are=20
important as well. In that sense I think that my current favorite is the =
href=3D"http://www.china-magic-cube.com/goods.asp?gid=3D68">rhombic dodec=
ahedral=20
puzzle that Brandon so graciously gave me. Searching for photos to sh=
are=20
just now I realize that that there are many that look very much like mine=
but=20
this one in particular is very special. The creator obviously went far be=
yond=20
what was needed to create a successful product, and that appeals to me a =
lot.=20
Even the inner working parts are as lovingly crafted as the visible parts=
. I=20
suggest that we restrict our favorites to just the platonic sense, but fe=
el=20
free to list favorite implementations too if you like.

Setting asi=
de=20
the cubic puzzles, I'm glad that you mention the hyperbolic {6,3,3}. It i=
s a=20
thing of beauty and I suspect not at all inevitable. The others you menti=
on=20
are wonderful as well, but the difficulty of this exercise lies in pickin=
g=20
one. So everyone else, feel free to call out cubes or physical puzzles to=
o,=20
just please pick one special favorite if you can.

-Melinda

On 1/22/2014 2:55 PM, Roice Nelson wrote:>

cite=3Dmid:CAEMuGXp2gbek7C7i7mv-2DGVySoy7wo+QFJmaDHARC1+72OOvw@mail.gmail=
.com=20
type=3D"cite">

Feels impossible to pick one, so I'll cheat and just nar=
row to=20
3 favorites. I'm glad they all exist.=20

Rubik's Cube, the root of all our permutation puzzle creativity.<=
BR>
MC4D, especially the superliminal implementation. Dimension=
al=20
analogy is awesome.
Andrey's Magic Hyperbolic Tile {6,3,3}: I can't say it is m=
y=20
favorite to solve (because I haven't), but the abstractions are fanta=
stic.=20
Jump a dimension, change the geometry, and let the puzzle faces=
=20
become a shape you'd never expect.

Even narrowing to 3 is difficult because there=
have=20
been so many really nice puzzles here over the years. Nan's 11-ce=
ll is=20
great, and I like the MagicTile KQ puzzle too. I can say this... =
I'm=20
super partial to permutation puzzles, especially those with some kind o=
f=20
mathematical abstraction that makes them impossible to manufacture in t=
he=20
physical world. In other words, all the stuff we discuss here :D<=
/DIV>

Looking forward to hearing Melinda's and other=
's=20
favorites!

Roice

On Wed, Jan 22, 2014 at 4:15 PM, Melinda Green=
dir=3Dltr><nk=20
moz=3D"true">melinda@superliminal.com> wrote:

class=3Dgmail_quote>

Andrey, unfortunate=
ly I=20
can't find the puzzle anywhere, but the description sounds ugly. So y=
ou=20
don't think that you could solve dotto if you had to? You solved the =
other=20
sporadic simple group puzzles, and we all suspect that you have magic=
=20
powers.

Nan, I'm not considering puzzles to be hard just becau=
se=20
they're big. The more I think about it, the more I'm starting to susp=
ect=20
that "hard" is a fuzzy and subjective concept. "Hard for its size" is=
=20
another concept that I thought made sense, but now I want to include =
some=20
form of elegance criterion as well, so I think that I'll just let go =
of=20
the concept altogether and just think in terms of favorites=20
instead.

So here is a question for everyone: Of all the puzzle=
s in=20
the world, which is the one that you are most glad for simply existin=
g? My=20
answer is fairly clear though I don't want to influence anyone by nam=
ing=20
it up front.

-Melinda>=20

On 1/19/2014 9:17 PM, "=20
target=3D_blank moz=3D"true">andreyastrelin@yahoo.com wrote:
<=
/DIV>

> If there exist any puzzles that humans really can't solve, =
I=20
don't know of them. Do you?

What about "dotto" game from this page:

href=3D"http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=3Dpuzzles-=
simple-groups-at-play"=20
rel=3Dnofollow target=3D_blank=20
moz=3D"true">http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=3Dpuz=
zles-simple-groups-at-play

It's the game in 24 dimensions!

Andrey

E>

------=_NextPart_000_0018_01CF17D8.D03012E0--

From: Melinda Green <melinda@superliminal.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2014 16:20:08 -0800
Subject: Re: [MC4D] RE: MPUltimate 1.5

--------------000902090803030401050105
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Pick one, Ed! :-)

On 1/22/2014 4:16 PM, Eduard Baumann wrote:
>
>
> For me it is clear:
> My favorite is the _whole collection of MagicTile_.
> Ed

--------------000902090803030401050105
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

http-equiv="Content-Type">

Pick one, Ed! :-)

On 1/22/2014 4:16 PM, Eduard Baumann
wrote:

type="cite">

http-equiv="Content-Type">

For me it is clear:

My favorite is the whole
collection of MagicTile.

Ed

--------------000902090803030401050105--

From: Melinda Green <melinda@superliminal.com>
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2014 03:01:39 -0800
Subject: Re: [MC4D] RE: MPUltimate 1.5

--------------060703090904080309010700
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

On 1/23/2014 2:48 AM, andreyastrelin@yahoo.com wrote:
>
>
> 3C stage of 120Z is solvable without extra computer assistance! It
> took from me two parity correction steps (one was flipping of 12 cells
> and the second - flipping of 40 cells, but some of them have been
> flipped twice). Every correction pushed me back to the middle of 2C
> stage and I had to go all the way to the end of 3C to investigate
> current situation. And there was a lot of pictures of different layers
> of 120-cell with descriptions of "polar transformation"...
>
> So now I'm sure that whole 120Z is solvable too, and that we'll see
> 3 or 4 human solves of it until the Singularity...
>

Because after the singularity, everybody will be able to solve it? ;^)
And just how long do you expect until then?

> What puzzles me now is the flips counter: it shows odd number of
> flips. Each flip makes 15 transpositions of 3C, and 1C pieces are
> fixed, so there can't be sequence of odd length that returns all 3C
> pieces in place. Probably it's some bug in the program.
>
>
> As for list of puzzles - it is short: 4^2, 3^3 and 3^4 (first on e
> is the Loyd's 15 game :) ).
>

4^2? As in 4x4x1? That's an odd choice. Why is it a favorite of yours?
And do you have a non-rectangular favorite?

--------------060703090904080309010700
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

">

On 1/23/2014 2:48 AM,
ahoo.com">andreyastrelin@yahoo.com wrote:

3C stage of 120Z is solvable without extra computer assistance!
It took from me two parity correction steps (one was flipping of
12 cells and the second - flipping of 40 cells, but some of them
have been flipped twice). Every correction pushed me back to the
middle of 2C stage and I had to go all the way to the end of 3C
to investigate current situation. And there was a lot of
pictures of different layers of 120-cell with descriptions of
"polar transformation"...

=C2=A0 So now I'm sure that whole 120Z is solvable too, and that
we'll see 3 or 4 human solves of it until the Singularity...

Because after the singularity, everybody will be able to solve it?=C2=
=A0
;^)

And just how long do you expect until then?

=C2=A0 What puzzles me now is the flips counter: it shows odd numb=
er
of flips. Each flip makes 15 transpositions of 3C, and 1C pieces
are fixed, so there can't be sequence of odd length that returns
all 3C pieces in place. Probably it's some bug in the program.

=C2=A0 As for list of=C2=A0puzzles - it is short: 4^2, 3^3 and 3^4=
(first
on e is the Loyd's 15 game :) ).

4^2? As in 4x4x1? That's an odd choice. Why is it a favorite of
yours?

And do you have a non-rectangular favorite?

--------------060703090904080309010700--

From: "Eduard Baumann" <ed.baumann@bluewin.ch>
Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2014 13:17:28 +0100
Subject: Re: [MC4D] RE: MPUltimate 1.5

------=_NextPart_000_0047_01CF183D.76EBA4A0
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="utf-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Melinda: you don't know Loyd's 15 ?? ;-)
Ed
3^2 would be tic-tac-toe

----- Original Message -----=20
From: Melinda Green=20
To: 4D_Cubing@yahoogroups.com=20
Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2014 12:01 PM
Subject: Re: [MC4D] RE: MPUltimate 1.5

=20=20=20=20

On 1/23/2014 2:48 AM, andreyastrelin@yahoo.com wrote:

3C stage of 120Z is solvable without extra computer assistance! It took=
from me two parity correction steps (one was flipping of 12 cells and the =
second - flipping of 40 cells, but some of them have been flipped twice). E=
very correction pushed me back to the middle of 2C stage and I had to go al=
l the way to the end of 3C to investigate current situation. And there was =
a lot of pictures of different layers of 120-cell with descriptions of "pol=
ar transformation"...

So now I'm sure that whole 120Z is solvable too, and that we'll see 3=
or 4 human solves of it until the Singularity...

Because after the singularity, everybody will be able to solve it? ;^)
And just how long do you expect until then?

What puzzles me now is the flips counter: it shows odd number of flip=
s. Each flip makes 15 transpositions of 3C, and 1C pieces are fixed, so the=
re can't be sequence of odd length that returns all 3C pieces in place. Pro=
bably it's some bug in the program.

As for list of puzzles - it is short: 4^2, 3^3 and 3^4 (first on e is=
the Loyd's 15 game :) ).

4^2? As in 4x4x1? That's an odd choice. Why is it a favorite of yours?
And do you have a non-rectangular favorite?

=20=20
------=_NextPart_000_0047_01CF183D.76EBA4A0
Content-Type: text/html;
charset="utf-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

=EF=BB=BF

Melinda: you don't know Loyd's 15 ??=20
;-)

3^2 would be tic-tac-toe

style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: =
0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">

----- Original Message -----

style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black">Fro=
m:=20
href=3D"mailto:melinda@superliminal.com">Melinda Green

To: ps.com=20
href=3D"mailto:4D_Cubing@yahoogroups.com">4D_Cubing@yahoogroups.com <=
/DIV>

Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2014 1=
2:01=20
PM

Subject: Re: [MC4D] RE: MPUltimate=
=20
1.5

=20

On 1/23/2014 2:48 AM, class=3Dmoz-txt-link-abbreviated=20
href=3D"mailto:andreyastrelin@yahoo.com">andreyastrelin@yahoo.com=20
wrote:

3C stage of 120Z is solvable without extra computer assistance! It t=
ook=20
from me two parity correction steps (one was flipping of 12 cells and t=
he=20
second - flipping of 40 cells, but some of them have been flipped twice=
).=20
Every correction pushed me back to the middle of 2C stage and I had to =
go=20
all the way to the end of 3C to investigate current situation. And ther=
e was=20
a lot of pictures of different layers of 120-cell with descriptions of=
=20
"polar transformation"...

So now I'm sure that whole 120Z is solvable too, and that we'=
ll=20
see 3 or 4 human solves of it until the=20
Singularity...

Because after the singularity, everybo=
dy=20
will be able to solve it? ;^)
And just how long do you expect un=
til=20
then?

What puzzles me now is the flips counter: it shows odd number=
of=20
flips. Each flip makes 15 transpositions of 3C, and 1C pieces are fixed=
, so=20
there can't be sequence of odd length that returns all 3C pieces in pla=
ce.=20
Probably it's some bug in the program.

As for list of puzzles - it is short: 4^2, 3^3 and 3^4 (=
first=20
on e is the Loyd's 15 game :) ).

4^2? As in 4x4=
x1?=20
That's an odd choice. Why is it a favorite of yours?
And do you have a=
=20
non-rectangular favorite?

------=_NextPart_000_0047_01CF183D.76EBA4A0--

From: <andreyastrelin@yahoo.com>
Date: 23 Jan 2014 08:48:35 -0800
Subject: Re: [MC4D] RE: MPUltimate 1.5

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From: <mananself@gmail.com>
Date: 23 Jan 2014 10:26:38 -0800
Subject: Re: [MC4D] RE: MPUltimate 1.5

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--9nlWnTS9ocNmxdhsK3FKVLWiM6a5jwOaA8HvrLV--

From: Melinda Green <melinda@superliminal.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2014 13:30:11 -0800
Subject: Re: [MC4D] RE: MPUltimate 1.5

--------------040708030904060600030309
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OK, time to reveal that my favorite puzzle of all was the face-turning
24-cell. It's a very special regular polytope, unique to 4-dimensions,
and turns out to be an extremely difficult puzzle with complications at
every step. This puzzle does not want to be solved! As I've read of
other member's favorites, I began to feel a bit less attracted to my
own. With all the octahedral faces, I am also reminded of the
face-turning octahedron that I tried to build a long time ago. After I
finally got my hands on one many years later, I discovered that I found
it rather boring. So maybe I just don't respond very well to this shape.
If each platonic solid were a type of gem, the octahedron would be like
a deep blue diamond to me. Beautiful but also cold and lifeless.
Andrey's recent implementation of 'Z' reflecting puzzles certainly
breaths new life into it. It even gives it a pulse as faces collapse in
on themselves and bounce back out inverted.

I said the FT 24-cell "was" my favorite, but now I feel that my favorite
is the lovely {3,7} 56 Color E0:1:0. She is a thing of grace and beauty,
not least because of the gorgeous UI and multiple viewing modes that
Roice implemented. The edge-turning version in particular is fascinating
to me because it consists of a bunch of short orbits and a bunch of
*really* long ones that snake sinuously around it's body and limbs like
ivy on a marble statue. It was the first IRP that I had found and I
could barely believe that it was real. Then to discover much later that
it could be turned into a twisty puzzle came as a pleasant shock. The
{5,5} seems so much more unlikely, that it should be even more special,
but like the 24-cell, I sort of don't know how to relate to it. It's
amazing that it exists at all, but it is rather ugly.

So like Ed, I ended up on Magic Tile, except that I didn't have much
trouble picking my favorite. I'm going to also recall that Ed did gush
over several MT puzzles, and I will even suggest that perhaps his
favorite is the humble but deceptive "MT eucl klein {3,6} 8 v 0:0:1".
What do you say, Ed?

I was surprised to see the 15 puzzle come up in this discussion. I am
certainly aware of it but never found it to be terribly interesting. I
get that it may have been the first popular group-theoretic puzzle, but
it certainly feels very different from all the twisty puzzles to me.

And then gosh, there are so many amazing puzzles that you all have
created! Higher dimensions, hyperbolic, abstract polyhedra, complex
polyhedra,... There seems to be no end to these wonders, and that's just
the way I like it!

-Melinda

On 1/22/2014 2:15 PM, Melinda Green wrote:
> Andrey, unfortunately I can't find the puzzle anywhere, but the
> description sounds ugly. So you don't think that you could solve dotto
> if you had to? You solved the other sporadic simple group puzzles, and
> we all suspect that you have magic powers.
>
> Nan, I'm not considering puzzles to be hard just because they're big.
> The more I think about it, the more I'm starting to suspect that
> "hard" is a fuzzy and subjective concept. "Hard for its size" is
> another concept that I thought made sense, but now I want to include
> some form of elegance criterion as well, so I think that I'll just let
> go of the concept altogether and just think in terms of favorites instead.
>
> So here is a question for everyone: Of all the puzzles in the world,
> which is the one that you are most glad for simply existing? My answer
> is fairly clear though I don't want to influence anyone by naming it
> up front.
>
> -Melinda
>
> On 1/19/2014 9:17 PM, andreyastrelin@yahoo.com wrote:
>>
>>
>> > If there exist any puzzles that humans really can't solve, I don't
>> know of them. Do you?
>>
>>
>> What about "dotto" game from this page:
>>
>> http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=puzzles-simple-groups-at-play
>>
>> It's the game in 24 dimensions!
>>
>>
>> Andrey
>>
>>
>>
>>
>

--------------040708030904060600030309
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OK, time to reveal that my favorite puzzle of all was the
face-turning 24-cell. It's a very special regular polytope, unique
to 4-dimensions, and turns out to be an extremely difficult puzzle
with complications at every step. This puzzle does not want to be
solved! As I've read of other member's favorites, I began to feel a
bit less attracted to my own. With all the octahedral faces, I am
also reminded of the face-turning octahedron that I tried to build a
long time ago. After I finally got my hands on one many years later,
I discovered that I found it rather boring. So maybe I just don't
respond very well to this shape. If each platonic solid were a type
of gem, the octahedron would be like a deep blue diamond to me.
Beautiful but also cold and lifeless. Andrey's recent implementation
of 'Z' reflecting puzzles certainly breaths new life into it. It
even gives it a pulse as faces collapse in on themselves and bounce
back out inverted.

I said the FT 24-cell "was" my favorite, but now I feel that my
favorite is the lovely {3,7} 56 Color E0:1:0. She is a thing of
grace and beauty, not least because of the gorgeous UI and multiple
viewing modes that Roice implemented. The edge-turning version in
particular is fascinating to me because it consists of a bunch of
short orbits and a bunch of *really* long ones that snake sinuously
around it's body and limbs like ivy on a marble statue. It was the
first IRP that I had found and I could barely believe that it was
real. Then to discover much later that it could be turned into a
twisty puzzle came as a pleasant shock. The {5,5} seems so much more
unlikely, that it should be even more special, but like the 24-cell,
I sort of don't know how to relate to it. It's amazing that it
exists at all, but it is rather ugly.

So like Ed, I ended up on Magic Tile, except that I didn't have much
trouble picking my favorite. I'm going to also recall that Ed did
gush over several MT puzzles, and I will even suggest that perhaps
his favorite is the humble but deceptive "MT eucl klein {3,6} 8 v
0:0:1". What do you say, Ed?

I was surprised to see the 15 puzzle come up in this discussion. I
am certainly aware of it but never found it to be terribly
interesting. I get that it may have been the first popular
group-theoretic puzzle, but it certainly feels very different from
all the twisty puzzles to me.

And then gosh, there are so many amazing puzzles that you all have
created! Higher dimensions, hyperbolic, abstract polyhedra, complex
polyhedra,... There seems to be no end to these wonders, and that's
just the way I like it!

-Melinda

On 1/22/2014 2:15 PM, Melinda Green
wrote:

Andrey, unfortunately I can't find the puzzle anywhere, but the
description sounds ugly. So you don't think that you could solve
dotto if you had to? You solved the other sporadic simple group
puzzles, and we all suspect that you have magic powers.

Nan, I'm not considering puzzles to be hard just because they're
big. The more I think about it, the more I'm starting to suspect
that "hard" is a fuzzy and subjective concept. "Hard for its size"
is another concept that I thought made sense, but now I want to
include some form of elegance criterion as well, so I think that
I'll just let go of the concept altogether and just think in terms
of favorites instead.

So here is a question for everyone: Of all the puzzles in the
world, which is the one that you are most glad for simply
existing? My answer is fairly clear though I don't want to
influence anyone by naming it up front.

-Melinda

On 1/19/2014 9:17 PM, moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:andreyastrelin@yahoo.com">andreyastrelin@yahoo.com
wrote:

> If there exist any puzzles that humans really can't
solve, I don't know of them. Do you?

What about "dotto" game from this page:

href="http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=puzzles-simple-groups-at-play">http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=puzzles-simple-groups-at-play

It's the game in 24 dimensions!

Andrey

--------------040708030904060600030309--

From: <andreyastrelin@yahoo.com>
Date: 26 Jan 2014 17:09:43 -0800
Subject: Re: [MC4D] RE: MPUltimate 1.5

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From: Melinda Green <melinda@superliminal.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2014 18:37:45 -0800
Subject: Re: [MC4D] RE: MPUltimate 1.5

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As much as I would like it, I'm not sure that there is a good
comparison. Both are finite when looked at properly, and the {5,5} has
only 8 faces, and the only coloring that seems even vaguely interesting
to me is 2-colors, 1 for each half that looks like a Chinese take-out box.

The {3,7} , or rather it's duel, is the one that seemed closest to
Klein's Quartic to me. In fact I felt certain that they simply had to be
topologically the same and was very surprised when Roice said they are
not. We have the graphs, and I still want to perform a proper comparison
but don't have the tools.

-Melinda

On 1/26/2014 5:09 PM, andreyastrelin@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> Melinda,
>
> I can't agree with your estimate of {5,5}. Yes, its implementation
> as infinite polyhedron looks strange, but consider its finite version:
> Great Dodecahedron ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_dodecahedron
> _http://en.wikipedia.org)
> _. It gives only two
> coloring schemes (6C and 12), but they are highly symmetric and I
> think that among hyperbolic puzzles it is on the same level as Klein's
> Quadric.
>
> Andrey
>

--------------080805010104010706000008
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">

As much as I would like it, I'm not sure that there is a good
comparison. Both are finite when looked at properly, and the {5,5}
has only 8 faces, and the only coloring that seems even vaguely
interesting to me is 2-colors, 1 for each half that looks like a
Chinese take-out box.

The {3,7} , or rather it's duel, is the one that seemed closest to
Klein's Quartic to me. In fact I felt certain that they simply had
to be topologically the same and was very surprised when Roice said
they are not. We have the graphs, and I still want to perform a
proper comparison but don't have the tools.

-Melinda

On 1/26/2014 5:09 PM,
ahoo.com">andreyastrelin@yahoo.com wrote:

Melinda,

=C2=A0 I can't agree with your estimate of {5,5}. Yes, its
implementation as infinite polyhedron looks strange, but
consider its finite version: Great Dodecahedron ( moz-do-not-send=3D"true" rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank"
href=3D"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_dodecahedronhttp://en.wikipedia.=
org/wiki/Great_dodecahedron">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_dodecahedro=
n color=3D"#0000ff"> target=3D"_blank"
href=3D"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_dodecahedron">http=
://en.wikipedia.org).=C2=A0It
gives only two coloring schemes (6C and 12), but=C2=A0they are=C2=
=A0highly
symmetric and I think that among hyperbolic puzzles it is on the
same level as Klein's Quadric.

Andrey

--------------080805010104010706000008--

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