Thread: "MagicTile Solving: tiny size / big challenge"

From: "Eduard" <baumann@mcnet.ch>
Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2012 07:48:06 -0000
Subject: MagicTile Solving: tiny size / big challenge



I'm very surprised to encounter a tiny MagicTile puzzle presenting a BIG ch=
allenge ! It's "MT eucl klein {3,6} 8 v 0:0:1". It has only 12 two-color e=
lements but the commutator moves 6 elements (double 3-cycle) and has only 6=
fixed elements. To create a single 3-cycle you have to find a setup which =
moves 5 moving elements on the 6 fixed places. Possibly you can solve this =
puzzle by chance when scrambled with few moves. But if I give you a scrambl=
ing with my 28 move single 3-cycle you have to do the job.




From: Melinda Green <melinda@superliminal.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2012 15:47:14 -0700
Subject: Re: [MC4D] MagicTile Solving: tiny size / big challenge



Nice find, Eduard! I especially like that it is non-orientable in
addition to being small.

How about you create a fully scrambled log file containing your 3-cycle
hidden in the middle somewhere and then share it with the group? We will
then see who can solve it. I just confirmed that you can erase the
scrambling history from the log file by deleting everything between the
and tags. That will make it a fair contest. It doesn't
seem to give the "ding" sound when you solve it that way but it seems to
work fine otherwise.

-Melinda

On 9/13/2012 12:48 AM, Eduard wrote:
> I'm very surprised to encounter a tiny MagicTile puzzle presenting a BIG challenge ! It's "MT eucl klein {3,6} 8 v 0:0:1". It has only 12 two-color elements but the commutator moves 6 elements (double 3-cycle) and has only 6 fixed elements. To create a single 3-cycle you have to find a setup which moves 5 moving elements on the 6 fixed places. Possibly you can solve this puzzle by chance when scrambled with few moves. But if I give you a scrambling with my 28 move single 3-cycle you have to do the job.




From: "Eduard Baumann" <baumann@mcnet.ch>
Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2012 13:10:35 +0200
Subject: Re: [MC4D] MagicTile Solving: tiny size / big challenge



------=_NextPart_000_0008_01CD9B1F.26858B30
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charset="iso-8859-1"
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Perfect!

I have replayed your 18 last twists which do a single 3-cycle (compared to =
my 28 twist macro).
There is a 4 fold twist within. So I can shorten your solution from 199 to =
197 twist.

But you say that you have a 10 twist single 3-cycle. Awesome!

I have inserted you in the wiki MT HOF. Now you appear 2 times there. Pleas=
e continue!

Kind regards
Ed

----- Original Message -----=20
From: andreyastrelin=20
To: 4D_Cubing@yahoogroups.com=20
Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2012 7:40 AM
Subject: Re: [MC4D] MagicTile Solving: tiny size / big challenge


=20=20=20=20
Solved: http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/4D_Cubing/files/Andrey/gem3_a=
a.xml .
199 twists, using some 10-twist 3-cycle :)

Andrey

--- In 4D_Cubing@yahoogroups.com, Melinda Green wrote:
>
> Who will be first and who will be shortest?
> 3..2..1.. Go!
>=20
> On 9/14/2012 2:58 AM, Eduard Baumann wrote:
> > [Attachment(s) <#TopText> from Eduard Baumann included below]
> >
> > Here is a fully scrambled log file containing my 3-cycle
> > hidden in the middle somewhere.
> > I have deleted the history and also deleted the macro which is=20
> > normally saved with log file.
> > Kind regards
> > Ed
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > *From:* Melinda Green
> > *To:* 4D_Cubing@yahoogroups.com
> > *Sent:* Friday, September 14, 2012 12:47 AM
> > *Subject:* Re: [MC4D] MagicTile Solving: tiny size / big challenge
> >
> > Nice find, Eduard! I especially like that it is non-orientable in
> > addition to being small.
> >
> > How about you create a fully scrambled log file containing your
> > 3-cycle
> > hidden in the middle somewhere and then share it with the group?
> > We will
> > then see who can solve it. I just confirmed that you can erase the
> > scrambling history from the log file by deleting everything
> > between the
> > and tags. That will make it a fair contest. It
> > doesn't
> > seem to give the "ding" sound when you solve it that way but it
> > seems to
> > work fine otherwise.
> >
> > -Melinda
> >
> > On 9/13/2012 12:48 AM, Eduard wrote:
> > > I'm very surprised to encounter a tiny MagicTile puzzle
> > presenting a BIG challenge ! It's "MT eucl klein {3,6} 8 v 0:0:1".
> > It has only 12 two-color elements but the commutator moves 6
> > elements (double 3-cycle) and has only 6 fixed elements. To create
> > a single 3-cycle you have to find a setup which moves 5 moving
> > elements on the 6 fixed places. Possibly you can solve this puzzle
> > by chance when scrambled with few moves. But if I give you a
> > scrambling with my 28 move single 3-cycle you have to do the job.
> >
>



=20=20
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Content-Type: text/html;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable



>


Perfect!

 

I have replayed your 18 last twists which =
do a=20
single 3-cycle (compared to my 28 twist macro).

There is a 4 fold twist within. So I can s=
horten=20
your solution from 199 to 197 twist.

 

But you say that you have a 10 twist singl=
e=20
3-cycle. Awesome!

 

I have inserted you in the wiki MT HOF. No=
w you=20
appear 2 times there. Please continue!

 

Kind regards

Ed

 

style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: =
0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
----- Original Message -----

style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black">Fro=
m:
=20
href=3D"mailto:andreyastrelin@yahoo.com">andreyastrelin
To: ps.com=20
href=3D"mailto:4D_Cubing@yahoogroups.com">4D_Cubing@yahoogroups.com
<=
/DIV>
Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2012 =
7:40=20
AM

Subject: Re: [MC4D] MagicTile Solv=
ing:=20
tiny size / big challenge


 =20

Solved: href=3D"http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/4D_Cubing/files/Andrey/gem3_a=
a.xml">http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/4D_Cubing/files/Andrey/gem3_aa.x=
ml=20
.
199 twists, using some 10-twist 3-cycle :)

Andrey

--- =
In href=3D"mailto:4D_Cubing@yahoogroups.com">4D_Cubing@yahoogroups.com, =
Melinda=20
Green <melinda@...> wrote:
>
> Who will be first and wh=
o=20
will be shortest?
> 3..2..1.. Go!
>
> On 9/14/2012 2:5=
8 AM,=20
Eduard Baumann wrote:
> > [Attachment(s) <#TopText> from E=
duard=20
Baumann included below]
> >
> > Here is a fully scrambl=
ed=20
log file containing my 3-cycle
> > hidden in the middle=20
somewhere.
> > I have deleted the history and also deleted the m=
acro=20
which is
> > normally saved with log file.
> > Kind=20
regards
> > Ed
> >
> > ----- Original Message=
=20
-----
> > *From:* Melinda Green <mailto:melinda@...>
&g=
t;=20
> *To:* href=3D"mailto:4D_Cubing%40yahoogroups.com">4D_Cubing@yahoogroups.com=
=20
<mailto: href=3D"mailto:4D_Cubing%40yahoogroups.com">4D_Cubing@yahoogroups.com=
>
>=20
> *Sent:* Friday, September 14, 2012 12:47 AM
> > *Subject:* =
Re:=20
[MC4D] MagicTile Solving: tiny size / big challenge
> >
> =
>=20
Nice find, Eduard! I especially like that it is non-orientable in
>=
>=20
addition to being small.
> >
> > How about you create a=
=20
fully scrambled log file containing your
> > 3-cycle
> >=
;=20
hidden in the middle somewhere and then share it with the group?
> =
>=20
We will
> > then see who can solve it. I just confirmed that you=
can=20
erase the
> > scrambling history from the log file by deleting=20
everything
> > between the
> > <Block> and=20
</Block> tags. That will make it a fair contest. It
> >=20
doesn't
> > seem to give the "ding" sound when you solve it that=
way=20
but it
> > seems to
> > work fine otherwise.
>=20
>
> > -Melinda
> >
> > On 9/13/2012 12:48 A=
M,=20
Eduard wrote:
> > > I'm very surprised to encounter a tiny=20
MagicTile puzzle
> > presenting a BIG challenge ! It's "MT eucl =
klein=20
{3,6} 8 v 0:0:1".
> > It has only 12 two-color elements but the=
=20
commutator moves 6
> > elements (double 3-cycle) and has only 6 =
fixed=20
elements. To create
> > a single 3-cycle you have to find a setu=
p=20
which moves 5 moving
> > elements on the 6 fixed places. Possibl=
y you=20
can solve this puzzle
> > by chance when scrambled with few move=
s.=20
But if I give you a
> > scrambling with my 28 move single 3-cycl=
e you=20
have to do the job.
> >
>



------=_NextPart_000_0008_01CD9B1F.26858B30--




From: Melinda Green <melinda@superliminal.com>
Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2012 15:32:19 -0700
Subject: Re: [MC4D] MagicTile Solving: tiny size / big challenge



--------------030301000206030005070608
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Awesome indeed, but that's only what we've come to expect from Andrey!
So tell us, Andrey, any interesting challenges or thoughts about this
diabolic gem? When I work with it, it seems so interconnected that I
destroy any order about as fast as I can create it.

-Melinda

On 9/25/2012 4:10 AM, Eduard Baumann wrote:
>
>
> Perfect!
> I have replayed your 18 last twists which do a single 3-cycle
> (compared to my 28 twist macro).
> There is a 4 fold twist within. So I can shorten your solution from
> 199 to 197 twist.
> But you say that you have a 10 twist single 3-cycle. Awesome!
> I have inserted you in the wiki MT HOF. Now you appear 2 times there.
> Please continue!
> Kind regards
> Ed
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* andreyastrelin
> *To:* 4D_Cubing@yahoogroups.com
> *Sent:* Tuesday, September 25, 2012 7:40 AM
> *Subject:* Re: [MC4D] MagicTile Solving: tiny size / big challenge
>
> Solved:
> http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/4D_Cubing/files/Andrey/gem3_aa.xml
> .
> 199 twists, using some 10-twist 3-cycle :)
>
> Andrey
>
> --- In 4D_Cubing@yahoogroups.com
> , Melinda Green wrote:
> >
> > Who will be first and who will be shortest?
> > 3..2..1.. Go!
> >
> > On 9/14/2012 2:58 AM, Eduard Baumann wrote:
> > > [Attachment(s) <#TopText> from Eduard Baumann included below]
> > >
> > > Here is a fully scrambled log file containing my 3-cycle
> > > hidden in the middle somewhere.
> > > I have deleted the history and also deleted the macro which is
> > > normally saved with log file.
> > > Kind regards
> > > Ed
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > *From:* Melinda Green
> > > *To:* 4D_Cubing@yahoogroups.com
>
> > >
> > > *Sent:* Friday, September 14, 2012 12:47 AM
> > > *Subject:* Re: [MC4D] MagicTile Solving: tiny size / big challenge
> > >
> > > Nice find, Eduard! I especially like that it is non-orientable in
> > > addition to being small.
> > >
> > > How about you create a fully scrambled log file containing your
> > > 3-cycle
> > > hidden in the middle somewhere and then share it with the group?
> > > We will
> > > then see who can solve it. I just confirmed that you can erase the
> > > scrambling history from the log file by deleting everything
> > > between the
> > > and tags. That will make it a fair contest. It
> > > doesn't
> > > seem to give the "ding" sound when you solve it that way but it
> > > seems to
> > > work fine otherwise.
> > >
> > > -Melinda
> > >
> > > On 9/13/2012 12:48 AM, Eduard wrote:
> > > > I'm very surprised to encounter a tiny MagicTile puzzle
> > > presenting a BIG challenge ! It's "MT eucl klein {3,6} 8 v 0:0:1".
> > > It has only 12 two-color elements but the commutator moves 6
> > > elements (double 3-cycle) and has only 6 fixed elements. To create
> > > a single 3-cycle you have to find a setup which moves 5 moving
> > > elements on the 6 fixed places. Possibly you can solve this puzzle
> > > by chance when scrambled with few moves. But if I give you a
> > > scrambling with my 28 move single 3-cycle you have to do the job.
> > >
> >
>
>
>
>
>


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Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit



http-equiv="Content-Type">


Awesome indeed, but that's only what we've come to expect from
Andrey!

So tell us, Andrey, any interesting challenges or thoughts about
this diabolic gem? When I work with it, it seems so interconnected
that I destroy any order about as fast as I can create it.



-Melinda



On 9/25/2012 4:10 AM, Eduard Baumann
wrote:


type="cite">

http-equiv="Content-Type">


Perfect!

 

I have replayed your 18 last
twists which do a single 3-cycle (compared to my 28 twist
macro).

There is a 4 fold twist within.
So I can shorten your solution from 199 to 197 twist.

 

But you say that you have a 10
twist single 3-cycle. Awesome!

 

I have inserted you in the wiki
MT HOF. Now you appear 2 times there. Please continue!

 

Kind regards

Ed

 


----- Original Message -----


To: moz-do-not-send="true" title="4D_Cubing@yahoogroups.com"
href="mailto:4D_Cubing@yahoogroups.com">4D_Cubing@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, September
25, 2012 7:40 AM

Subject: Re: [MC4D]
MagicTile Solving: tiny size / big challenge




 

Solved: href="http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/4D_Cubing/files/Andrey/gem3_aa.xml">http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/4D_Cubing/files/Andrey/gem3_aa.xml
.

199 twists, using some 10-twist 3-cycle :)



Andrey



--- In href="mailto:4D_Cubing@yahoogroups.com">4D_Cubing@yahoogroups.com,
Melinda Green <melinda@...> wrote:

>

> Who will be first and who will be shortest?

> 3..2..1.. Go!

>

> On 9/14/2012 2:58 AM, Eduard Baumann wrote:

> > [Attachment(s) <#TopText> from Eduard
Baumann included below]

> >

> > Here is a fully scrambled log file containing my
3-cycle

> > hidden in the middle somewhere.

> > I have deleted the history and also deleted the
macro which is

> > normally saved with log file.

> > Kind regards

> > Ed

> >

> > ----- Original Message -----

> > *From:* Melinda Green <mailto:melinda@...>

> > *To:* href="mailto:4D_Cubing%40yahoogroups.com">4D_Cubing@yahoogroups.com
<mailto: href="mailto:4D_Cubing%40yahoogroups.com">4D_Cubing@yahoogroups.com>

> > *Sent:* Friday, September 14, 2012 12:47 AM

> > *Subject:* Re: [MC4D] MagicTile Solving: tiny size
/ big challenge

> >

> > Nice find, Eduard! I especially like that it is
non-orientable in

> > addition to being small.

> >

> > How about you create a fully scrambled log file
containing your

> > 3-cycle

> > hidden in the middle somewhere and then share it
with the group?

> > We will

> > then see who can solve it. I just confirmed that
you can erase the

> > scrambling history from the log file by deleting
everything

> > between the

> > <Block> and </Block> tags. That will
make it a fair contest. It

> > doesn't

> > seem to give the "ding" sound when you solve it
that way but it

> > seems to

> > work fine otherwise.

> >

> > -Melinda

> >

> > On 9/13/2012 12:48 AM, Eduard wrote:

> > > I'm very surprised to encounter a tiny
MagicTile puzzle

> > presenting a BIG challenge ! It's "MT eucl klein
{3,6} 8 v 0:0:1".

> > It has only 12 two-color elements but the
commutator moves 6

> > elements (double 3-cycle) and has only 6 fixed
elements. To create

> > a single 3-cycle you have to find a setup which
moves 5 moving

> > elements on the 6 fixed places. Possibly you can
solve this puzzle

> > by chance when scrambled with few moves. But if I
give you a

> > scrambling with my 28 move single 3-cycle you have
to do the job.

> >

>















--------------030301000206030005070608--




From: "Andrey" <andreyastrelin@yahoo.com>
Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 07:16:38 -0000
Subject: Re: MagicTile Solving: tiny size / big challenge



Thank you! Main thought - is that colors are not all equivalent (there are =
two vertical lines with different properties). Problem with this puzzle is =
that you can't find two circles with only one common moving element. To sol=
ve it I've found two circles intersecting by two petals that were 120 deg a=
part on one circle and in opposite positions on another. Then I've tried co=
mmutator A^2 B^3 A^(-2) B^3 - and it has worked! 3-cycle, but not very conv=
enient. Nevertheless, I took it, draw schemes for it and some more (mirrore=
d, upside-down, backward). Then the strategy was simple. All petals are gro=
uped in 3 classes - two on "another" vertical, and 6 on each of two circles=
on "this" vertical (two are on both circles). So first I had to put petals=
from the first class in place - and forget about them, and then use 3-cycl=
e on one circle to sort petals on another one (and back).
So it's strange puzzle, but good plan is all you need to fight it :)

Andrey

--- In 4D_Cubing@yahoogroups.com, Melinda Green wrote:
>
> Awesome indeed, but that's only what we've come to expect from Andrey!
> So tell us, Andrey, any interesting challenges or thoughts about this=20
> diabolic gem? When I work with it, it seems so interconnected that I=20
> destroy any order about as fast as I can create it.
>=20
> -Melinda
>=20
> On 9/25/2012 4:10 AM, Eduard Baumann wrote:
> >
> >
> > Perfect!
> > I have replayed your 18 last twists which do a single 3-cycle=20
> > (compared to my 28 twist macro).
> > There is a 4 fold twist within. So I can shorten your solution from=20
> > 199 to 197 twist.
> > But you say that you have a 10 twist single 3-cycle. Awesome!
> > I have inserted you in the wiki MT HOF. Now you appear 2 times there.=20
> > Please continue!
> > Kind regards
> > Ed
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > *From:* andreyastrelin
> > *To:* 4D_Cubing@yahoogroups.com
> > *Sent:* Tuesday, September 25, 2012 7:40 AM
> > *Subject:* Re: [MC4D] MagicTile Solving: tiny size / big challenge
> >
> > Solved:
> > http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/4D_Cubing/files/Andrey/gem3_aa.=
xml
> > .
> > 199 twists, using some 10-twist 3-cycle :)
> >
> > Andrey
> >
> > --- In 4D_Cubing@yahoogroups.com
> > , Melinda Green wrote:
> > >
> > > Who will be first and who will be shortest?
> > > 3..2..1.. Go!
> > >
> > > On 9/14/2012 2:58 AM, Eduard Baumann wrote:
> > > > [Attachment(s) <#TopText> from Eduard Baumann included below]
> > > >
> > > > Here is a fully scrambled log file containing my 3-cycle
> > > > hidden in the middle somewhere.
> > > > I have deleted the history and also deleted the macro which is
> > > > normally saved with log file.
> > > > Kind regards
> > > > Ed
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > *From:* Melinda Green
> > > > *To:* 4D_Cubing@yahoogroups.com
> >
> > > > >
> > > > *Sent:* Friday, September 14, 2012 12:47 AM
> > > > *Subject:* Re: [MC4D] MagicTile Solving: tiny size / big challe=
nge
> > > >
> > > > Nice find, Eduard! I especially like that it is non-orientable =
in
> > > > addition to being small.
> > > >
> > > > How about you create a fully scrambled log file containing your
> > > > 3-cycle
> > > > hidden in the middle somewhere and then share it with the group=
?
> > > > We will
> > > > then see who can solve it. I just confirmed that you can erase =
the
> > > > scrambling history from the log file by deleting everything
> > > > between the
> > > > and tags. That will make it a fair contest. It
> > > > doesn't
> > > > seem to give the "ding" sound when you solve it that way but it
> > > > seems to
> > > > work fine otherwise.
> > > >
> > > > -Melinda
> > > >
> > > > On 9/13/2012 12:48 AM, Eduard wrote:
> > > > > I'm very surprised to encounter a tiny MagicTile puzzle
> > > > presenting a BIG challenge ! It's "MT eucl klein {3,6} 8 v 0:0:=
1".
> > > > It has only 12 two-color elements but the commutator moves 6
> > > > elements (double 3-cycle) and has only 6 fixed elements. To cre=
ate
> > > > a single 3-cycle you have to find a setup which moves 5 moving
> > > > elements on the 6 fixed places. Possibly you can solve this puz=
zle
> > > > by chance when scrambled with few moves. But if I give you a
> > > > scrambling with my 28 move single 3-cycle you have to do the jo=
b.
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >=20=20=20=20=20
> >
>





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