Thread: "Super Puzzle Sunday!"

From: Roice Nelson <roice3@gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2012 18:26:09 -0600
Subject: Super Puzzle Sunday!



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Hi all,

When I wrote last, MagicTile had 63 puzzles configured. *Now it has over
450!* Here are some highlights:

- Tetrahedron puzzles: Projecting the tetrahedron out to the sphere
results in large curvature of faces, so there are some genuinely new
puzzles here (which have no corresponding GelatinBrain applet). Check o=
ut
the ET puzzles in particular.
- Dodecahedron and Icosahedron: Added FT and VT hemispherically sliced
puzzles (BigChop-like). These puzzles have "1:1:1" labels. I also adde=
d
crazy versions mixing all three BigChops into one FEV SuperChop
puzzle. Very pretty, but must be difficult!
- Hemispherically sliced puzzles for all the other platonic solids too
(though the labels end up being different for the different shapes).
- {3,6} and {4,4} Klein Bottlese>.
And the great thing about Klein Bottles for this group is that they
require 4 dimensions to represent the compact surface without self
intersections :D
- Analogues of Pyraminx Crystal and other Dodecahedral slicings, but on
the {6,3} tilings.
- Many new FT {7,3} puzzle cut depths.
- A class of mixed ET+VT puzzles that apply to various tilings. The
edge turning circle size is set to the incircle of the tiling, and the
vertex turning size is set to the circumcircle, making all slices inters=
ect
at tile centers. The labels of this class of puzzles are "E0:1:0 V0:0:=
1".
On every single spherical puzzle, the initial projections have slices t=
hat
appear as lines, and I found the Cube and Octahedron projections especia=
lly
striking. These look nice on {p,q} tilings when q is larger than p, sin=
ce
the edge circles become comparatively smaller - besides the Octahedron, =
see
the {3,5} and {3,7} for instance.
- A class of mixed FT+VT puzzles, "F0:1:0 V1:0:0". Slicing circles all
intersect at edge midpoints, and it seems like these puzzles should
generally be easy.
- Check out the {5,5} FEV puzzles. Since it is a self-dual tiling, the
slicing around faces and vertices is congruent. Very cool looking, and =
I
bet these are fun to solve.
- Three strange {8,4} colorings. It would be a fun mini-project to do
analysis of the topological structure of these.
- *Just lots and lots and lots of new slicing in general, so have a look
around.*

I tried to select puzzles that have reasonable looking slicing, though
perhaps pushed the boundaries of that in a some cases. Maybe some are too
difficult or too easy. If you find puzzles that you feel shouldn't belong,
I'd appreciate feedback on that. I welcome suggestions for further slicing
too.

In case you are wondering, here is the meaning of the puzzle labels. I
wanted to have something auto-generated that gave insight into the depth of
the cuts. Hopefully it is terse enough. A slice is displayed with the
turning type, "F", "E", or "V", plus a cut diameter specified by three
numbers in the form "P:Q:R".

P is the number of tiling edge lengths
Q is the number of incircles
R is the number of circumcircles

These numbers are based on the side lengths of the fundamental p.q.2
triangle of the tiling. P is the side opposite the =F0/p angle, Q the side
opposite the =F0/q angle, and R the side opposite the =F0/2 angle (R is the
hypotenuse of fundamental triangle). The final slicing circle radius is
set to some linear combination of these three lengths. This approach
allows you to make much simpler looking expressions for cut depths. I
tried to avoid decimals when possible.

There is a new puzzle tree so you can more easily select puzzles, but I
still left in the onerous nested menus. This latest version also fixes
some bugs I've run across. I won't detail those here, but I encourage you
to download the latest rather than use previous versions.

Some things I haven't done, but would like to do: I should probably add a
description of the labels directly in the program, maybe even a visual one.
I'd also like to add preview pictures for all the puzzles, to make it
easier to see what they look like without actually having to build them.

One last thing: I have removed the "Preview" label :)

www.gravitation3d.com/magictile/downloads/MagicTile_v2.zip

Cheers,
Roice

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Hi all,
=A0
When I wrote last, MagicTile had 63 pu=
zzles configured. =A0Now it has over 450!=A0=
Here are some highlights:
I tried to select puzzles that have reasonable looking slicing, t=
hough perhaps pushed the boundaries of that in a some cases. =A0Maybe some =
are too difficult or too easy. =A0If you find puzzles that you feel shouldn=
't belong, I'd appreciate feedback on that. =A0I welcome suggestion=
s for further slicing too.






In case you are wondering, here is the meaning of the puzzle labels. =A0I w=
anted to have something auto-generated that gave insight into the depth of =
the cuts. =A0Hopefully it is terse enough. =A0A slice is=A0displayed with t=
he turning type, "F", "E", or "V", plus a cut=
diameter specified by three numbers in the form "P:Q:R".



=A0 =A0 P is the number of tiling edge lengths
v>
=A0 =A0 Q is the number of incircles
=A0 =A0 R is the numb=
er of circumcircles

These numbers are based on the side=
lengths of the fundamental p.q.2 triangle of the tiling. =A0P is the side =
opposite the =F0/p angle, Q the side opposite the =F0/q angle, and R the si=
de opposite the =F0/2 angle (R is the hypotenuse of fundamental triangle). =
=A0The final slicing circle radius is set to some linear combination of the=
se three lengths. =A0This approach allows you to make much simpler looking =
expressions for cut depths. =A0I tried to avoid decimals when possible.v>


There is a new puzzle tree so you can more easily selec=
t puzzles, but I still left in the onerous nested menus. =A0This latest ver=
sion also fixes some bugs I've run across. =A0I won't detail those =
here, but I encourage you to download the latest rather than use previous v=
ersions.

Some things I haven't done, but would like to=
do: =A0I should probably add a description of the labels directly in the p=
rogram, maybe even a visual one. =A0I'd also like to add preview pictur=
es for all the puzzles, to make it easier to see what they look like withou=
t actually having to build them. =A0


One last thing: =A0I have removed the "Preview&quo=
t; label :)


oads/MagicTile_v2.zip" target=3D"_blank">www.gravitation3d.com/magictile/do=
wnloads/MagicTile_v2.zip



Cheers,
Roice







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From: "Eduard Baumann" <baumann@mcnet.ch>
Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2012 10:51:18 +0100
Subject: Re: Super Puzzle Sunday!



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Awesome! Marvelous!
Thanks very much!

Ed
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>




Awesome! Marvelous!

Thanks very much!

 

Ed


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From: "Eduard Baumann" <baumann@mcnet.ch>
Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2012 13:40:29 +0100
Subject: Re: [MC4D] Super Puzzle Sunday!



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The "hall of fame" for MagicTile cannot follow the "450" puzzle explosion..

Two ideas

(1)
What about a new list "number of MT solved":
1. Nan 14
2. Andrey 11
...
x. Ed 2

(2)
Or:=20
Show the list of solvers in the tree of puzzles in MagicTile when clicking =
with right button.

Kind regards
Ed

----- Original Message -----=20
From: Roice Nelson=20
To: 4D_Cubing@yahoogroups.com=20
Sent: Monday, February 06, 2012 1:26 AM
Subject: [MC4D] Super Puzzle Sunday!


=20=20=20=20

Hi all,

When I wrote last, MagicTile had 63 puzzles configured. Now it has over =
450! Here are some highlights:
a.. Tetrahedron puzzles: Projecting the tetrahedron out to the sphere r=
esults in large curvature of faces, so there are some genuinely new puzzles=
here (which have no corresponding GelatinBrain applet). Check out the ET =
puzzles in particular.=20
b.. Dodecahedron and Icosahedron: Added FT and VT hemispherically slice=
d puzzles (BigChop-like). These puzzles have "1:1:1" labels. I also added=
crazy versions mixing all three BigChops into one FEV SuperChop puzzle. V=
ery pretty, but must be difficult!=20
c.. Hemispherically sliced puzzles for all the other platonic solids to=
o (though the labels end up being different for the different shapes).
d.. {3,6} and {4,4} Klein Bottles. And the great thing about Klein Bot=
tles for this group is that they require 4 dimensions to represent the comp=
act surface without self intersections :D=20
e.. Analogues of Pyraminx Crystal and other Dodecahedral slicings, but =
on the {6,3} tilings.
f.. Many new FT {7,3} puzzle cut depths.=20=20
g.. A class of mixed ET+VT puzzles that apply to various tilings. The =
edge turning circle size is set to the incircle of the tiling, and the vert=
ex turning size is set to the circumcircle, making all slices intersect at =
tile centers. The labels of this class of puzzles are "E0:1:0 V0:0:1". O=
n every single spherical puzzle, the initial projections have slices that a=
ppear as lines, and I found the Cube and Octahedron projections especially =
striking. These look nice on {p,q} tilings when q is larger than p, since =
the edge circles become comparatively smaller - besides the Octahedron, see=
the {3,5} and {3,7} for instance.=20
h.. A class of mixed FT+VT puzzles, "F0:1:0 V1:0:0". Slicing circles a=
ll intersect at edge midpoints, and it seems like these puzzles should gene=
rally be easy.
i.. Check out the {5,5} FEV puzzles. Since it is a self-dual tiling, t=
he slicing around faces and vertices is congruent. Very cool looking, and =
I bet these are fun to solve.=20
j.. Three strange {8,4} colorings. It would be a fun mini-project to d=
o analysis of the topological structure of these.
k.. Just lots and lots and lots of new slicing in general, so have a lo=
ok around.=20
I tried to select puzzles that have reasonable looking slicing, though pe=
rhaps pushed the boundaries of that in a some cases. Maybe some are too di=
fficult or too easy. If you find puzzles that you feel shouldn't belong, I=
'd appreciate feedback on that. I welcome suggestions for further slicing =
too.


In case you are wondering, here is the meaning of the puzzle labels. I w=
anted to have something auto-generated that gave insight into the depth of =
the cuts. Hopefully it is terse enough. A slice is displayed with the tur=
ning type, "F", "E", or "V", plus a cut diameter specified by three numbers=
in the form "P:Q:R".


P is the number of tiling edge lengths
Q is the number of incircles
R is the number of circumcircles

These numbers are based on the side lengths of the fundamental p.q.2 tria=
ngle of the tiling. P is the side opposite the =F0/p angle, Q the side opp=
osite the =F0/q angle, and R the side opposite the =F0/2 angle (R is the hy=
potenuse of fundamental triangle). The final slicing circle radius is set =
to some linear combination of these three lengths. This approach allows yo=
u to make much simpler looking expressions for cut depths. I tried to avoi=
d decimals when possible.


There is a new puzzle tree so you can more easily select puzzles, but I s=
till left in the onerous nested menus. This latest version also fixes some=
bugs I've run across. I won't detail those here, but I encourage you to d=
ownload the latest rather than use previous versions.=20


Some things I haven't done, but would like to do: I should probably add =
a description of the labels directly in the program, maybe even a visual on=
e. I'd also like to add preview pictures for all the puzzles, to make it e=
asier to see what they look like without actually having to build them. =
=20


One last thing: I have removed the "Preview" label :)


www.gravitation3d.com/magictile/downloads/MagicTile_v2.zip


Cheers,
Roice

=20=20
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>


The "hall of fame" for MagicTile cannot fo=
llow the=20
"450" puzzle explosion..

 

Two ideas

 

(1)

What about a new list "number of MT=20
solved":

  1. Nan     =
; =20
14

  2. Andrey   11V>
  ...

  x.=20
Ed           2
V>
 

(2)

Or:

Show the list of solvers in the tree of pu=
zzles in=20
MagicTile when clicking with right button.

 

Kind regards

Ed

 

style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: =
0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
----- Original Message -----

style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black">Fro=
m:
=20
Roice Nelson=
=20

To: ps.com=20
href=3D"mailto:4D_Cubing@yahoogroups.com">4D_Cubing@yahoogroups.com
<=
/DIV>
Sent: Monday, February 06, 2012 1:=
26=20
AM

Subject: [MC4D] Super Puzzle=20
Sunday!


 =20


Hi all,

 

When I wrote last, MagicTile had 63 puzzles configured.  NT=20
size=3D4>Now it has over 450!
  Here are some highlights:<=
/DIV>

  • Tetrahedron puzzles: Projecting the tetrahedron out to the sphere=20
    results in large curvature of faces, so there are some genuinely new pu=
    zzles=20
    here (which have no corresponding GelatinBrain applet).  Check out=
    the=20
    ET puzzles in particular.=20
  • Dodecahedron and Icosahedron: Added FT and VT hemispherically slice=
    d=20
    puzzles (BigChop-like).  These puzzles have "1:1:1" labels.  =
    I=20
    also added crazy versions mixing all three BigChops into one FEV SuperC=
    hop=20
    puzzle.  Very pretty, but must be difficult!=20
  • Hemispherically sliced puzzles for all the other platonic solids to=
    o=20
    (though the labels end up being different for the different shapes).
  • {3,6} and {4,4} href=3D"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klein_bottle">Klein Bottles.=20
     And the great thing about Klein Bottles for this group is that th=
    ey=20
    require 4 dimensions to represent the compact surface without self=20
    intersections :D=20
  • Analogues of Pyraminx Crystal and other Dodecahedral slicings, but =
    on=20
    the {6,3} tilings.
  • Many new FT {7,3} puzzle cut depths. =20
  • A class of mixed ET+VT puzzles that apply to various tilings.=
    =20
     The edge turning circle size is set to the incircle of the tiling=
    , and=20
    the vertex turning size is set to the circumcircle, making all slices=20
    intersect at tile centers.   The labels of this class of puzzles a=
    re=20
    "E0:1:0 V0:0:1".  On every single spherical puzzle, the initial=20
    projections have slices that appear as lines, and I found the Cube and=
    =20
    Octahedron projections especially striking.  These look nice on {p=
    ,q}=20
    tilings when q is larger than p, since the edge circles become comparat=
    ively=20
    smaller - besides the Octahedron, see the {3,5} and {3,7} for instance.=
    =20
  • A class of mixed FT+VT puzzles, "F0:1:0 V1:0:0".  Slicing circ=
    les=20
    all intersect at edge midpoints, and it seems like these puzzles should=
    =20
    generally be easy.
  • Check out the {5,5} FEV puzzles.  Since it is a self-dual tili=
    ng,=20
    the slicing around faces and vertices is congruent.  Very cool loo=
    king,=20
    and I bet these are fun to solve.=20
  • Three strange {8,4} colorings.  It would be a fun mini-project=
    to=20
    do analysis of the topological structure of these.
  • Just lots and lots and lots of new slicing in general, so h=
    ave a=20
    look around.

I tried to select puzzles that have reasonable looking slicing, thou=
gh=20
perhaps pushed the boundaries of that in a some cases.  Maybe some a=
re=20
too difficult or too easy.  If you find puzzles that you feel should=
n't=20
belong, I'd appreciate feedback on that.  I welcome suggestions for=
=20
further slicing too.



In case you are wondering, here is the meaning of the puzzle labels.=
=20
 I wanted to have something auto-generated that gave insight into th=
e=20
depth of the cuts.  Hopefully it is terse enough.  A slice=20
is displayed with the turning type, "F", "E", or "V", plus a cut dia=
meter=20
specified by three numbers in the form "P:Q:R".



    P is the number of tiling edge lengths


    Q is the number of incircles

    R is the number of circumcircles


These numbers are based on the side lengths of the fundamental p=
.q.2=20
triangle of the tiling.  P is the side opposite the =F0/p angle, Q t=
he side=20
opposite the =F0/q angle, and R the side opposite the =F0/2 angle (R is t=
he=20
hypotenuse of fundamental triangle).  The final slicing circle radiu=
s is=20
set to some linear combination of these three lengths.  This approac=
h=20
allows you to make much simpler looking expressions for cut depths.  =
;I=20
tried to avoid decimals when possible.



There is a new puzzle tree so you can more easily select puzzles, bu=
t I=20
still left in the onerous nested menus.  This latest version also fi=
xes=20
some bugs I've run across.  I won't detail those here, but I encoura=
ge=20
you to download the latest rather than use previous versions.



Some things I haven't done, but would like to do:  I should pro=
bably=20
add a description of the labels directly in the program, maybe even a vis=
ual=20
one.  I'd also like to add preview pictures for all the puzzles, to =
make=20
it easier to see what they look like without actually having to build the=
m.=20
 



One last thing:  I have removed the "Preview" label :)



href=3D"http://www.gravitation3d.com/magictile/downloads/MagicTile_v2.zip=
"=20
target=3D_blank>www.gravitation3d.com/magictile/downloads/MagicTile_v2.zi=
p



Cheers,

Roice



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From: Roice Nelson <roice3@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2012 14:43:07 -0600
Subject: Re: [MC4D] Super Puzzle Sunday!



--f46d0401240bc0270e04b851b596
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Hi Eduard,

I like your ideas. I especially support (1), since it can be done
collectively by the group in the wiki. I noticed the other day that Nan is
keeping his user wiki page
current with the
puzzles he's been solving in MagicTile, so updating an
additional "number of MT solved" table doesn't seem too bad. Having a
"number of 4D solved" would be nice too! (Nan, I'm sorry for changing
display names by the way - let me know if you'd like help mapping the
previous names to the new ones, e.g. "Petal" to "F0:0:1".)

(2) sounds cool, but would need to be an automated solution somehow. I
know I would get overwhelmed trying to manage a solvers list via email like
I do for MC5D. I haven't researched, but I wonder if there might be some
off the shelf service for this kind of thing (managing user achievements
for games). It'd be cool if there was, because it would have a chance of
happening if I only needed to work with some API, vs. having to code
something myself. If anyone knows of anything like this, I'd appreciate
info. It would be useful info for MC4D too.

seeya,
Roice

2012/2/6 Eduard Baumann

> **
>
>
> The "hall of fame" for MagicTile cannot follow the "450" puzzle explosion..
>
> Two ideas
>
> (1)
> What about a new list "number of MT solved":
> 1. Nan 14
> 2. Andrey 11
> ...
> x. Ed 2
>
> (2)
> Or:
> Show the list of solvers in the tree of puzzles in MagicTile when clicking
> with right button.
>
> Kind regards
> Ed
>

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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Eduard,
=A0
I like your ideas.=A0 I especially =
support (1), since it can be done collectively=A0by the group in the wiki.=
=A0=A0I=A0noticed the other day that Nan is keeping superliminal.com/wiki/User:Schuma">his user wiki page current with the =
puzzles he's been solving in MagicTile, so updating an additional=A0&qu=
ot;number of MT solved" table doesn't seem too bad.=A0 Having a &q=
uot;number of 4D solved" would be nice too!=A0 (Nan, I'm sorry for=
changing display names by the way - let me know if you'd like help map=
ping the previous names to the new ones, e.g. "Petal"=A0to=A0 &qu=
ot;F0:0:1".)

=A0
(2) sounds cool, but would need to be an automated solut=
ion somehow.=A0 I know I would get overwhelmed trying to manage a solvers l=
ist via email like I do for MC5D.=A0 I haven't researched, but I wonder=
if there might be some off the shelf service for this kind of thing (manag=
ing user achievements for games).=A0 It'd be cool if there was, because=
it would have a chance of happening if I only needed to work with some API=
, vs. having to code something myself.=A0 If anyone knows of anything like =
this, I'd appreciate info.=A0 It would be useful info for MC4D too.v>
=A0
seeya,
Roice

quote">2012/2/6 Eduard Baumann <ann@mcnet.ch">baumann@mcnet.ch>
n:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);bor=
der-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid" class=3D"gmail_quote">







=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20

















The "hall of fame" for MagicTile cannot=
follow the=20
"450" puzzle explosion..

=A0

Two ideas

=A0

(1)

What about a new list "number of MT=20
solved":

=A0 1. Nan=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=20
14

=A0 2. Andrey=A0=A0 11

=A0 ...

=A0 x.=20
Ed=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 2

=A0

(2)

Or:

Show the list of solvers in the tree of puzzles i=
n=20
MagicTile when clicking with right button.

=A0

Kind regards

Ed


--f46d0401240bc0270e04b851b596--




From: "schuma" <mananself@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 07 Feb 2012 05:54:31 -0000
Subject: Re: Super Puzzle Sunday!



Hi Roice,

Thank you for making so many puzzles!!! I usually don't complain about too =
many puzzles. But this version has way too many.=20

I think I need a good way to keep track of the puzzles that have been solve=
d. The list I created before doesn't have structures. It would be good if s=
omeone, or I, can create a table that reflects the current tree structure o=
f the puzzles. I think, if so, I'm more motivated to solve them.=20

I haven't looked into the new terminology and don't know how hard it would =
be to translate the old names to the new names. But many of the old log fil=
es don't load. Probably I don't really need to open them. But it would be n=
ice, for me, to have a previous version of v2 that can open the older logs,=
just in case I want to look at them, occasionally. After all, I spent 40+ =
hours on the {3,7} puzzles. My old version has already been replaced by the=
new version. Roice, do you have a copy of the old version? Can you put it =
somewhere?

In Magic Tile v1, clicking while holding numbers "2" will turn the second l=
ayer. I find it convenient to make middle layer turns. Is it hard to implem=
ent in v2? In some puzzles like Dodecahedron F2:0:1, the middle layer turns=
will be useful.

Nan

--- In 4D_Cubing@yahoogroups.com, Roice Nelson wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>=20
> When I wrote last, MagicTile had 63 puzzles configured. *Now it has over
> 450!* Here are some highlights:
>=20
> - Tetrahedron puzzles: Projecting the tetrahedron out to the sphere
> results in large curvature of faces, so there are some genuinely new
> puzzles here (which have no corresponding GelatinBrain applet). Check=
out
> the ET puzzles in particular.
> - Dodecahedron and Icosahedron: Added FT and VT hemispherically sliced
> puzzles (BigChop-like). These puzzles have "1:1:1" labels. I also ad=
ded
> crazy versions mixing all three BigChops into one FEV SuperChop
> puzzle. Very pretty, but must be difficult!
> - Hemispherically sliced puzzles for all the other platonic solids too
> (though the labels end up being different for the different shapes).
> - {3,6} and {4,4} Klein Bottlestle>.
> And the great thing about Klein Bottles for this group is that they
> require 4 dimensions to represent the compact surface without self
> intersections :D
> - Analogues of Pyraminx Crystal and other Dodecahedral slicings, but o=
n
> the {6,3} tilings.
> - Many new FT {7,3} puzzle cut depths.
> - A class of mixed ET+VT puzzles that apply to various tilings. The
> edge turning circle size is set to the incircle of the tiling, and the
> vertex turning size is set to the circumcircle, making all slices inte=
rsect
> at tile centers. The labels of this class of puzzles are "E0:1:0 V0:=
0:1".
> On every single spherical puzzle, the initial projections have slices=
that
> appear as lines, and I found the Cube and Octahedron projections espec=
ially
> striking. These look nice on {p,q} tilings when q is larger than p, s=
ince
> the edge circles become comparatively smaller - besides the Octahedron=
, see
> the {3,5} and {3,7} for instance.
> - A class of mixed FT+VT puzzles, "F0:1:0 V1:0:0". Slicing circles al=
l
> intersect at edge midpoints, and it seems like these puzzles should
> generally be easy.
> - Check out the {5,5} FEV puzzles. Since it is a self-dual tiling, th=
e
> slicing around faces and vertices is congruent. Very cool looking, an=
d I
> bet these are fun to solve.
> - Three strange {8,4} colorings. It would be a fun mini-project to do
> analysis of the topological structure of these.
> - *Just lots and lots and lots of new slicing in general, so have a lo=
ok
> around.*
>=20
> I tried to select puzzles that have reasonable looking slicing, though
> perhaps pushed the boundaries of that in a some cases. Maybe some are to=
o
> difficult or too easy. If you find puzzles that you feel shouldn't belon=
g,
> I'd appreciate feedback on that. I welcome suggestions for further slici=
ng
> too.
>=20
> In case you are wondering, here is the meaning of the puzzle labels. I
> wanted to have something auto-generated that gave insight into the depth =
of
> the cuts. Hopefully it is terse enough. A slice is displayed with the
> turning type, "F", "E", or "V", plus a cut diameter specified by three
> numbers in the form "P:Q:R".
>=20
> P is the number of tiling edge lengths
> Q is the number of incircles
> R is the number of circumcircles
>=20
> These numbers are based on the side lengths of the fundamental p.q.2
> triangle of the tiling. P is the side opposite the =F0/p angle, Q the si=
de
> opposite the =F0/q angle, and R the side opposite the =F0/2 angle (R is t=
he
> hypotenuse of fundamental triangle). The final slicing circle radius is
> set to some linear combination of these three lengths. This approach
> allows you to make much simpler looking expressions for cut depths. I
> tried to avoid decimals when possible.
>=20
> There is a new puzzle tree so you can more easily select puzzles, but I
> still left in the onerous nested menus. This latest version also fixes
> some bugs I've run across. I won't detail those here, but I encourage yo=
u
> to download the latest rather than use previous versions.
>=20
> Some things I haven't done, but would like to do: I should probably add =
a
> description of the labels directly in the program, maybe even a visual on=
e.
> I'd also like to add preview pictures for all the puzzles, to make it
> easier to see what they look like without actually having to build them.
>=20
> One last thing: I have removed the "Preview" label :)
>=20
> www.gravitation3d.com/magictile/downloads/MagicTile_v2.zip
>=20
> Cheers,
> Roice
>




From: "Eduard Baumann" <baumann@mcnet.ch>
Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2012 13:48:40 +0100
Subject: Re: [MC4D] Super Puzzle Sunday!



------=_NextPart_000_000E_01CCE59F.33420FF0
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="ISO-8859-7"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

This marvelous MagicTile runs only on one (not the modernst one) of my thre=
e PC's.
Do you know a link for downloading a FBO driver?

Kind regards
Ed

----- Original Message -----=20
From: Roice Nelson=20
To: 4D_Cubing@yahoogroups.com=20
Sent: Monday, February 06, 2012 1:26 AM
Subject: [MC4D] Super Puzzle Sunday!


=20=20=20=20

Hi all,

When I wrote last, MagicTile had 63 puzzles configured. Now it has over =
450! Here are some highlights:
a.. Tetrahedron puzzles: Projecting the tetrahedron out to the sphere r=
esults in large curvature of faces, so there are some genuinely new puzzles=
here (which have no corresponding GelatinBrain applet). Check out the ET =
puzzles in particular.=20
b.. Dodecahedron and Icosahedron: Added FT and VT hemispherically slice=
d puzzles (BigChop-like). These puzzles have "1:1:1" labels. I also added=
crazy versions mixing all three BigChops into one FEV SuperChop puzzle. V=
ery pretty, but must be difficult!=20
c.. Hemispherically sliced puzzles for all the other platonic solids to=
o (though the labels end up being different for the different shapes).
d.. {3,6} and {4,4} Klein Bottles. And the great thing about Klein Bot=
tles for this group is that they require 4 dimensions to represent the comp=
act surface without self intersections :D=20
e.. Analogues of Pyraminx Crystal and other Dodecahedral slicings, but =
on the {6,3} tilings.
f.. Many new FT {7,3} puzzle cut depths.=20=20
g.. A class of mixed ET+VT puzzles that apply to various tilings. The =
edge turning circle size is set to the incircle of the tiling, and the vert=
ex turning size is set to the circumcircle, making all slices intersect at =
tile centers. The labels of this class of puzzles are "E0:1:0 V0:0:1". O=
n every single spherical puzzle, the initial projections have slices that a=
ppear as lines, and I found the Cube and Octahedron projections especially =
striking. These look nice on {p,q} tilings when q is larger than p, since =
the edge circles become comparatively smaller - besides the Octahedron, see=
the {3,5} and {3,7} for instance.=20
h.. A class of mixed FT+VT puzzles, "F0:1:0 V1:0:0". Slicing circles a=
ll intersect at edge midpoints, and it seems like these puzzles should gene=
rally be easy.
i.. Check out the {5,5} FEV puzzles. Since it is a self-dual tiling, t=
he slicing around faces and vertices is congruent. Very cool looking, and =
I bet these are fun to solve.=20
j.. Three strange {8,4} colorings. It would be a fun mini-project to d=
o analysis of the topological structure of these.
k.. Just lots and lots and lots of new slicing in general, so have a lo=
ok around.=20
I tried to select puzzles that have reasonable looking slicing, though pe=
rhaps pushed the boundaries of that in a some cases. Maybe some are too di=
fficult or too easy. If you find puzzles that you feel shouldn't belong, I=
'd appreciate feedback on that. I welcome suggestions for further slicing =
too.


In case you are wondering, here is the meaning of the puzzle labels. I w=
anted to have something auto-generated that gave insight into the depth of =
the cuts. Hopefully it is terse enough. A slice is displayed with the tur=
ning type, "F", "E", or "V", plus a cut diameter specified by three numbers=
in the form "P:Q:R".


P is the number of tiling edge lengths
Q is the number of incircles
R is the number of circumcircles

These numbers are based on the side lengths of the fundamental p.q.2 tria=
ngle of the tiling. P is the side opposite the =F0/p angle, Q the side opp=
osite the =F0/q angle, and R the side opposite the =F0/2 angle (R is the hy=
potenuse of fundamental triangle). The final slicing circle radius is set =
to some linear combination of these three lengths. This approach allows yo=
u to make much simpler looking expressions for cut depths. I tried to avoi=
d decimals when possible.


There is a new puzzle tree so you can more easily select puzzles, but I s=
till left in the onerous nested menus. This latest version also fixes some=
bugs I've run across. I won't detail those here, but I encourage you to d=
ownload the latest rather than use previous versions.=20


Some things I haven't done, but would like to do: I should probably add =
a description of the labels directly in the program, maybe even a visual on=
e. I'd also like to add preview pictures for all the puzzles, to make it e=
asier to see what they look like without actually having to build them. =
=20


One last thing: I have removed the "Preview" label :)


www.gravitation3d.com/magictile/downloads/MagicTile_v2.zip


Cheers,
Roice

=20=20
------=_NextPart_000_000E_01CCE59F.33420FF0
Content-Type: text/html;
charset="ISO-8859-7"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable



>


This marvelous MagicTile runs only on one =
(not the=20
modernst one) of my three PC's.

Do you know a link for downloading a FBO=20
driver?

 

Kind regards

Ed

 

style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: =
0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
----- Original Message -----

style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black">Fro=
m:
=20
Roice Nelson=
=20

To: ps.com=20
href=3D"mailto:4D_Cubing@yahoogroups.com">4D_Cubing@yahoogroups.com
<=
/DIV>
Sent: Monday, February 06, 2012 1:=
26=20
AM

Subject: [MC4D] Super Puzzle=20
Sunday!


 =20


Hi all,

 

When I wrote last, MagicTile had 63 puzzles configured.  NT=20
size=3D4>Now it has over 450!
  Here are some highlights:<=
/DIV>

  • Tetrahedron puzzles: Projecting the tetrahedron out to the sphere=20
    results in large curvature of faces, so there are some genuinely new pu=
    zzles=20
    here (which have no corresponding GelatinBrain applet).  Check out=
    the=20
    ET puzzles in particular.=20
  • Dodecahedron and Icosahedron: Added FT and VT hemispherically slice=
    d=20
    puzzles (BigChop-like).  These puzzles have "1:1:1" labels.  =
    I=20
    also added crazy versions mixing all three BigChops into one FEV SuperC=
    hop=20
    puzzle.  Very pretty, but must be difficult!=20
  • Hemispherically sliced puzzles for all the other platonic solids to=
    o=20
    (though the labels end up being different for the different shapes).
  • {3,6} and {4,4} href=3D"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klein_bottle">Klein Bottles.=20
     And the great thing about Klein Bottles for this group is that th=
    ey=20
    require 4 dimensions to represent the compact surface without self=20
    intersections :D=20
  • Analogues of Pyraminx Crystal and other Dodecahedral slicings, but =
    on=20
    the {6,3} tilings.
  • Many new FT {7,3} puzzle cut depths. =20
  • A class of mixed ET+VT puzzles that apply to various tilings.=
    =20
     The edge turning circle size is set to the incircle of the tiling=
    , and=20
    the vertex turning size is set to the circumcircle, making all slices=20
    intersect at tile centers.   The labels of this class of puzzles a=
    re=20
    "E0:1:0 V0:0:1".  On every single spherical puzzle, the initial=20
    projections have slices that appear as lines, and I found the Cube and=
    =20
    Octahedron projections especially striking.  These look nice on {p=
    ,q}=20
    tilings when q is larger than p, since the edge circles become comparat=
    ively=20
    smaller - besides the Octahedron, see the {3,5} and {3,7} for instance.=
    =20
  • A class of mixed FT+VT puzzles, "F0:1:0 V1:0:0".  Slicing circ=
    les=20
    all intersect at edge midpoints, and it seems like these puzzles should=
    =20
    generally be easy.
  • Check out the {5,5} FEV puzzles.  Since it is a self-dual tili=
    ng,=20
    the slicing around faces and vertices is congruent.  Very cool loo=
    king,=20
    and I bet these are fun to solve.=20
  • Three strange {8,4} colorings.  It would be a fun mini-project=
    to=20
    do analysis of the topological structure of these.
  • Just lots and lots and lots of new slicing in general, so h=
    ave a=20
    look around.

I tried to select puzzles that have reasonable looking slicing, thou=
gh=20
perhaps pushed the boundaries of that in a some cases.  Maybe some a=
re=20
too difficult or too easy.  If you find puzzles that you feel should=
n't=20
belong, I'd appreciate feedback on that.  I welcome suggestions for=
=20
further slicing too.



In case you are wondering, here is the meaning of the puzzle labels.=
=20
 I wanted to have something auto-generated that gave insight into th=
e=20
depth of the cuts.  Hopefully it is terse enough.  A slice=20
is displayed with the turning type, "F", "E", or "V", plus a cut dia=
meter=20
specified by three numbers in the form "P:Q:R".



    P is the number of tiling edge lengths


    Q is the number of incircles

    R is the number of circumcircles


These numbers are based on the side lengths of the fundamental p=
.q.2=20
triangle of the tiling.  P is the side opposite the =F0/p angle, Q t=
he side=20
opposite the =F0/q angle, and R the side opposite the =F0/2 angle (R is t=
he=20
hypotenuse of fundamental triangle).  The final slicing circle radiu=
s is=20
set to some linear combination of these three lengths.  This approac=
h=20
allows you to make much simpler looking expressions for cut depths.  =
;I=20
tried to avoid decimals when possible.



There is a new puzzle tree so you can more easily select puzzles, bu=
t I=20
still left in the onerous nested menus.  This latest version also fi=
xes=20
some bugs I've run across.  I won't detail those here, but I encoura=
ge=20
you to download the latest rather than use previous versions.



Some things I haven't done, but would like to do:  I should pro=
bably=20
add a description of the labels directly in the program, maybe even a vis=
ual=20
one.  I'd also like to add preview pictures for all the puzzles, to =
make=20
it easier to see what they look like without actually having to build the=
m.=20
 



One last thing:  I have removed the "Preview" label :)



href=3D"http://www.gravitation3d.com/magictile/downloads/MagicTile_v2.zip=
"=20
target=3D_blank>www.gravitation3d.com/magictile/downloads/MagicTile_v2.zi=
p



Cheers,

Roice



------=_NextPart_000_000E_01CCE59F.33420FF0--




From: Roice Nelson <roice3@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2012 11:04:20 -0600
Subject: Re: [MC4D] Re: Super Puzzle Sunday!



--e89a8f22c33f2542c404b862c55b
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Hi Nan,

Thank you for your feedback.

Do not worry - I have copies of all the binaries I've uploaded in the past.
However, I think it will be better to change the latest code to be able to
load the older files. The persistence needed to change for ET and VT
puzzles, and it was easier to put that loading message in for those instead
of support for loading older files. I had wondered if that might be ok,
but I should have made a stronger effort to be backward compatible from the
start. I will ping you when a fix is available (hopefully this weekend).

Also, I will make middle slicing for spherical puzzles the next item to
implement after the load fix. It should not be very difficult.

On the wiki topic, it will be easy to programmatically generate a wiki
table with the current puzzle list, so I will take a shot at one to see
what you think of it. And I will privately send you a list of the new
names which correspond to the puzzles you've already solved. Sorry again
about that. I had to change the naming since previous names like "ET {3,7}"
are now ambiguous.

Take Care,
Roice

On Mon, Feb 6, 2012 at 11:54 PM, schuma wrote:

> Hi Roice,
>
> Thank you for making so many puzzles!!! I usually don't complain about too
> many puzzles. But this version has way too many.
>
> I think I need a good way to keep track of the puzzles that have been
> solved. The list I created before doesn't have structures. It would be good
> if someone, or I, can create a table that reflects the current tree
> structure of the puzzles. I think, if so, I'm more motivated to solve them.
>
> I haven't looked into the new terminology and don't know how hard it would
> be to translate the old names to the new names. But many of the old log
> files don't load. Probably I don't really need to open them. But it would
> be nice, for me, to have a previous version of v2 that can open the older
> logs, just in case I want to look at them, occasionally. After all, I spent
> 40+ hours on the {3,7} puzzles. My old version has already been replaced by
> the new version. Roice, do you have a copy of the old version? Can you put
> it somewhere?
>
> In Magic Tile v1, clicking while holding numbers "2" will turn the second
> layer. I find it convenient to make middle layer turns. Is it hard to
> implement in v2? In some puzzles like Dodecahedron F2:0:1, the middle layer
> turns will be useful.
>
> Nan
>
>

--e89a8f22c33f2542c404b862c55b
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Nan,


Thank you for your feedback.

>
Do not worry - I have copies of all the binaries I've uploaded in=
the past. =A0However, I think it will be better to change the latest code =
to be able to load the older files. =A0The persistence needed to change for=
ET and VT puzzles, and it was easier to put that loading message in for th=
ose instead of support for loading older files. =A0I had wondered if that m=
ight be ok, but I should have made a stronger effort to be backward compati=
ble from the start. =A0I=A0will ping you when a fix is available (hopefully=
this weekend). =A0


Also, I will make middle slicing for spherical puzzles =
the next item to implement after the load fix. =A0It should not be very dif=
ficult.

On the wiki topic, it will be easy to prog=
rammatically generate a wiki table with the current puzzle list, so I will =
take a shot at one to see what you think of it. =A0And I will privately sen=
d you a list of the new names which correspond to the puzzles you've al=
ready solved. =A0Sorry again about that. I had to change the naming since p=
revious names like "ET {3,7}" are now ambiguous.


Take Care,
Roice

uote">On Mon, Feb 6, 2012 at 11:54 PM, schuma <=3D"mailto:mananself@gmail.com">mananself@gmail.com> wrote:r>
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Hi Roice,



Thank you for making so many puzzles!!! I usually don't complain about =
too many puzzles. But this version has way too many.



I think I need a good way to keep track of the puzzles that have been solve=
d. The list I created before doesn't have structures. It would be good =
if someone, or I, can create a table that reflects the current tree structu=
re of the puzzles. I think, if so, I'm more motivated to solve them.>



I haven't looked into the new terminology and don't know how hard i=
t would be to translate the old names to the new names. But many of the old=
log files don't load. Probably I don't really need to open them. B=
ut it would be nice, for me, to have a previous version of v2 that can open=
the older logs, just in case I want to look at them, occasionally. After a=
ll, I spent 40+ hours on the {3,7} puzzles. My old version has already been=
replaced by the new version. Roice, do you have a copy of the old version?=
Can you put it somewhere?




In Magic Tile v1, clicking while holding numbers "2" will turn th=
e second layer. I find it convenient to make middle layer turns. Is it hard=
to implement in v2? In some puzzles like Dodecahedron F2:0:1, the middle l=
ayer turns will be useful.




Nan




--e89a8f22c33f2542c404b862c55b--




From: Roice Nelson <roice3@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2012 11:13:14 -0600
Subject: Re: [MC4D] Super Puzzle Sunday!



--e89a8f2348a7f134eb04b862e49f
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Hi Ed,

The support for OpenGL
FBOsis dependent on
your accelerated graphics hardware. Updating your graphics
drivers, which will depend on what video card you may have, is the only
suggestion I can make (though it easily may not help). If you would like
some help figuring out what graphics hardware you have on your newest PC,
feel free to email me privately.

seeya,
Roice


2012/2/7 Eduard Baumann

> **
>
>
> This marvelous MagicTile runs only on one (not the modernst one) of my
> three PC's.
> Do you know a link for downloading a FBO driver?
>
> Kind regards
> Ed
>

--e89a8f2348a7f134eb04b862e49f
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Ed,


The support for OpenGL=A0ipedia.org/wiki/Framebuffer_Object">FBOs is dependent on your accelerat=
ed graphics hardware. =A0Updating your graphics drivers, which will depend =
on what video card you may have, is the only suggestion I can make (though =
it easily may not help). =A0If you would like some help figuring out what g=
raphics hardware you have on your newest PC, feel free to email me privatel=
y.


seeya,
Roice


ail_quote">2012/2/7 Eduard Baumann <baumann@mcnet.ch">baumann@mcnet.ch>
mail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-l=
eft:1ex">







=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20

















This marvelous MagicTile runs only on one (not th=
e=20
modernst one)=A0of my three PC's.

Do you know a link for downloading a FBO=20
driver?

=A0

Kind regards

Ed
iv>

--e89a8f2348a7f134eb04b862e49f--




From: "Eduard Baumann" <baumann@mcnet.ch>
Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2012 19:33:56 +0100
Subject: Re: [MC4D] Super Puzzle Sunday!



------=_NextPart_000_0010_01CCE5CF.6E98F250
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Thanks.

PC Hp 4 core
-ATI RadeonHD 3650
-System XP
FBO okay

LabTop BenQ
-Intel(R) 82852/82855 GM/GME Graphics Controller
-System XP
FBO ko

NoteBook Asus
-Intel(R) Graphics Media Accelerator 3150
-Generic Non-PnP Monitor
-System Windows 7
FBO ko

Is that enough info?

Kind regards
Ed

----- Original Message -----=20
From: Roice Nelson=20
To: 4D_Cubing@yahoogroups.com=20
Sent: Tuesday, February 07, 2012 6:13 PM
Subject: Re: [MC4D] Super Puzzle Sunday!


=20=20=20=20
Hi Ed,



The support for OpenGL FBOs is dependent on your accelerated graphics har=
dware. Updating your graphics drivers, which will depend on what video car=
d you may have, is the only suggestion I can make (though it easily may not=
help). If you would like some help figuring out what graphics hardware yo=
u have on your newest PC, feel free to email me privately.


seeya,
Roice




2012/2/7 Eduard Baumann




This marvelous MagicTile runs only on one (not the modernst one) of my =
three PC's.
Do you know a link for downloading a FBO driver?

Kind regards
Ed

=20=20
------=_NextPart_000_0010_01CCE5CF.6E98F250
Content-Type: text/html;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable



>


Thanks.

 

PC  Hp 4 core

    -ATI RadeonHD 3650T>

    -System XP

face=3DArial>          &n=
bsp;            =
;           =20
FBO okay

 

LabTop BenQ

    -Intel(R) 82852/82855 G=
M/GME=20
Graphics Controller

    -System XP

face=3DArial>          &n=
bsp;            =
;           =20
FBO ko

 

NoteBook Asus

    -Intel(R) Graphics Medi=
a=20
Accelerator 3150

    -Generic Non-PnP=20
Monitor

    -System Windows 7>

face=3DArial>          &n=
bsp;            =
;           =20
FBO ko

 

Is that enough info?

 

Kind regards

Ed

 

style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: =
0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
----- Original Message -----

style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black">Fro=
m:
=20
Roice Nelson=
=20

To: ps.com=20
href=3D"mailto:4D_Cubing@yahoogroups.com">4D_Cubing@yahoogroups.com
<=
/DIV>
Sent: Tuesday, February 07, 2012 6=
:13=20
PM

Subject: Re: [MC4D] Super Puzzle=20
Sunday!


 =20

Hi Ed,



The support for OpenGL  href=3D"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Framebuffer_Object">FBOs is depe=
ndent=20
on your accelerated graphics hardware.  Updating your graphics drive=
rs,=20
which will depend on what video card you may have, is the only suggestion=
I=20
can make (though it easily may not help).  If you would like some he=
lp=20
figuring out what graphics hardware you have on your newest PC, feel free=
to=20
email me privately.



seeya,

Roice




2012/2/7 Eduard Baumann < href=3D"mailto:baumann@mcnet.ch">baumann@mcnet.ch>

=




This marvelous MagicTile runs only on one (not =
the=20
modernst one) of my three PC's.

Do you know a link for downloading a FBO=20
driver?

 

Kind regards

Ed
<=
/DIV>



------=_NextPart_000_0010_01CCE5CF.6E98F250--




From: Roice Nelson <roice3@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2012 23:13:54 -0600
Subject: Re: [MC4D] Re: Super Puzzle Sunday!



--14dae9d716fc41190a04b86cf6a0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

I generated a page in the wiki with a set of tables corresponding to the
new MT puzzle tree structure. The generation of this can easily be changed
if you guys would like different columns, etc.

http://wiki.superliminal.com/wiki/MagicTile_v2_Solutions

The page is a bit unwieldy, though it is nice that sections can easily be
edited individually. I think separating it into three different pages (one
for each geometry type) would improve things. Let me know if you think
this looks like a useful path for solution tracking.

Roice


On Tue, Feb 7, 2012 at 11:04 AM, Roice Nelson wrote:

> Hi Nan,
>
> Thank you for your feedback.
>
> Do not worry - I have copies of all the binaries I've uploaded in the
> past. However, I think it will be better to change the latest code to be
> able to load the older files. The persistence needed to change for ET and
> VT puzzles, and it was easier to put that loading message in for those
> instead of support for loading older files. I had wondered if that might
> be ok, but I should have made a stronger effort to be backward compatible
> from the start. I will ping you when a fix is available (hopefully this
> weekend).
>
> Also, I will make middle slicing for spherical puzzles the next item to
> implement after the load fix. It should not be very difficult.
>
> On the wiki topic, it will be easy to programmatically generate a wiki
> table with the current puzzle list, so I will take a shot at one to see
> what you think of it. And I will privately send you a list of the new
> names which correspond to the puzzles you've already solved. Sorry again
> about that. I had to change the naming since previous names like "ET {3,7}"
> are now ambiguous.
>
> Take Care,
> Roice
>
>
> On Mon, Feb 6, 2012 at 11:54 PM, schuma wrote:
>
>> Hi Roice,
>>
>> Thank you for making so many puzzles!!! I usually don't complain about
>> too many puzzles. But this version has way too many.
>>
>> I think I need a good way to keep track of the puzzles that have been
>> solved. The list I created before doesn't have structures. It would be good
>> if someone, or I, can create a table that reflects the current tree
>> structure of the puzzles. I think, if so, I'm more motivated to solve them.
>>
>> I haven't looked into the new terminology and don't know how hard it
>> would be to translate the old names to the new names. But many of the old
>> log files don't load. Probably I don't really need to open them. But it
>> would be nice, for me, to have a previous version of v2 that can open the
>> older logs, just in case I want to look at them, occasionally. After all, I
>> spent 40+ hours on the {3,7} puzzles. My old version has already been
>> replaced by the new version. Roice, do you have a copy of the old version?
>> Can you put it somewhere?
>>
>> In Magic Tile v1, clicking while holding numbers "2" will turn the second
>> layer. I find it convenient to make middle layer turns. Is it hard to
>> implement in v2? In some puzzles like Dodecahedron F2:0:1, the middle layer
>> turns will be useful.
>>
>> Nan
>>
>>

--14dae9d716fc41190a04b86cf6a0
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I generated a page in the wiki with a set of tables corresponding to the ne=
w MT puzzle tree structure. =A0The generation of this can easily be changed=
if you guys would like different columns, etc.




The page is a bit unwieldy, though it is nice that sect=
ions can easily be edited individually. =A0I think separating it into three=
different pages (one for each geometry type) would improve things. =A0Let =
me know if you think this looks like a useful path for solution tracking.div>

Roice


On T=
ue, Feb 7, 2012 at 11:04 AM, Roice Nelson <mailto:roice3@gmail.com">roice3@gmail.com> wrote:
ote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc s=
olid;padding-left:1ex">
Hi Nan,

Thank you for your feedback.

>
Do not worry - I have copies of all the binaries I've uploaded in=
the past. =A0However, I think it will be better to change the latest code =
to be able to load the older files. =A0The persistence needed to change for=
ET and VT puzzles, and it was easier to put that loading message in for th=
ose instead of support for loading older files. =A0I had wondered if that m=
ight be ok, but I should have made a stronger effort to be backward compati=
ble from the start. =A0I=A0will ping you when a fix is available (hopefully=
this weekend). =A0



Also, I will make middle slicing for spherical puzzles =
the next item to implement after the load fix. =A0It should not be very dif=
ficult.

On the wiki topic, it will be easy to prog=
rammatically generate a wiki table with the current puzzle list, so I will =
take a shot at one to see what you think of it. =A0And I will privately sen=
d you a list of the new names which correspond to the puzzles you've al=
ready solved. =A0Sorry again about that. I had to change the naming since p=
revious names like "ET {3,7}" are now ambiguous.



Take Care,
Roice


v class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Feb 6, 2012 at 11:54 PM, schuma =3D"ltr"><manan=
self@gmail.com
>
wrote:


x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Hi Roice,



Thank you for making so many puzzles!!! I usually don't complain about =
too many puzzles. But this version has way too many.



I think I need a good way to keep track of the puzzles that have been solve=
d. The list I created before doesn't have structures. It would be good =
if someone, or I, can create a table that reflects the current tree structu=
re of the puzzles. I think, if so, I'm more motivated to solve them.>




I haven't looked into the new terminology and don't know how hard i=
t would be to translate the old names to the new names. But many of the old=
log files don't load. Probably I don't really need to open them. B=
ut it would be nice, for me, to have a previous version of v2 that can open=
the older logs, just in case I want to look at them, occasionally. After a=
ll, I spent 40+ hours on the {3,7} puzzles. My old version has already been=
replaced by the new version. Roice, do you have a copy of the old version?=
Can you put it somewhere?





In Magic Tile v1, clicking while holding numbers "2" will turn th=
e second layer. I find it convenient to make middle layer turns. Is it hard=
to implement in v2? In some puzzles like Dodecahedron F2:0:1, the middle l=
ayer turns will be useful.





Nan






--14dae9d716fc41190a04b86cf6a0--




From: "Eduard Baumann" <baumann@mcnet.ch>
Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2012 15:49:01 +0100
Subject: Re: [MC4D] Re: Super Puzzle Sunday!



------=_NextPart_000_0038_01CCE679.2DD05100
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Fine.
It's okay for me (a "many twist solver").
I can even insert my recent 2 short puzzle solves (tetra F 0:0:1 and E 1:0:=
0).
Ed

----- Original Message -----=20
From: Roice Nelson=20
To: 4D_Cubing@yahoogroups.com=20
Sent: Wednesday, February 08, 2012 6:13 AM
Subject: Re: [MC4D] Re: Super Puzzle Sunday!


=20=20=20=20
I generated a page in the wiki with a set of tables corresponding to the =
new MT puzzle tree structure. The generation of this can easily be changed=
if you guys would like different columns, etc.



http://wiki.superliminal.com/wiki/MagicTile_v2_Solutions


The page is a bit unwieldy, though it is nice that sections can easily be=
edited individually. I think separating it into three different pages (on=
e for each geometry type) would improve things. Let me know if you think t=
his looks like a useful path for solution tracking.


Roice



On Tue, Feb 7, 2012 at 11:04 AM, Roice Nelson wrote:

Hi Nan,


Thank you for your feedback.


Do not worry - I have copies of all the binaries I've uploaded in the p=
ast. However, I think it will be better to change the latest code to be ab=
le to load the older files. The persistence needed to change for ET and VT=
puzzles, and it was easier to put that loading message in for those instea=
d of support for loading older files. I had wondered if that might be ok, =
but I should have made a stronger effort to be backward compatible from the=
start. I will ping you when a fix is available (hopefully this weekend). =
=20


Also, I will make middle slicing for spherical puzzles the next item to=
implement after the load fix. It should not be very difficult.


On the wiki topic, it will be easy to programmatically generate a wiki =
table with the current puzzle list, so I will take a shot at one to see wha=
t you think of it. And I will privately send you a list of the new names w=
hich correspond to the puzzles you've already solved. Sorry again about th=
at. I had to change the naming since previous names like "ET {3,7}" are now=
ambiguous.


Take Care,
Roice



On Mon, Feb 6, 2012 at 11:54 PM, schuma wrote:

Hi Roice,

Thank you for making so many puzzles!!! I usually don't complain abou=
t too many puzzles. But this version has way too many.

I think I need a good way to keep track of the puzzles that have been=
solved. The list I created before doesn't have structures. It would be goo=
d if someone, or I, can create a table that reflects the current tree struc=
ture of the puzzles. I think, if so, I'm more motivated to solve them.

I haven't looked into the new terminology and don't know how hard it =
would be to translate the old names to the new names. But many of the old l=
og files don't load. Probably I don't really need to open them. But it woul=
d be nice, for me, to have a previous version of v2 that can open the older=
logs, just in case I want to look at them, occasionally. After all, I spen=
t 40+ hours on the {3,7} puzzles. My old version has already been replaced =
by the new version. Roice, do you have a copy of the old version? Can you p=
ut it somewhere?

In Magic Tile v1, clicking while holding numbers "2" will turn the se=
cond layer. I find it convenient to make middle layer turns. Is it hard to =
implement in v2? In some puzzles like Dodecahedron F2:0:1, the middle layer=
turns will be useful.

Nan






=20=20
------=_NextPart_000_0038_01CCE679.2DD05100
Content-Type: text/html;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable



>


Fine.

It's okay for me (a "many twist=20
solver").

I can even insert my recent 2 short puzzle=
solves=20
(tetra F 0:0:1 and E 1:0:0).

Ed

 

style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: =
0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
----- Original Message -----

style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black">Fro=
m:
=20
Roice Nelson=
=20

To: ps.com=20
href=3D"mailto:4D_Cubing@yahoogroups.com">4D_Cubing@yahoogroups.com
<=
/DIV>
Sent: Wednesday, February 08, 2012=
6:13=20
AM

Subject: Re: [MC4D] Re: Super Puzz=
le=20
Sunday!


 =20

I generated a page in the wiki with a set of tables corresponding to t=
he=20
new MT puzzle tree structure.  The generation of this can easily be=
=20
changed if you guys would like different columns, etc.



href=3D"http://wiki.superliminal.com/wiki/MagicTile_v2_Solutions">http://=
wiki.superliminal.com/wiki/MagicTile_v2_Solutions



The page is a bit unwieldy, though it is nice that sections can easi=
ly be=20
edited individually.  I think separating it into three different pag=
es=20
(one for each geometry type) would improve things.  Let me know if y=
ou=20
think this looks like a useful path for solution tracking.



Roice




On Tue, Feb 7, 2012 at 11:04 AM, Roice Nelson PAN=20
dir=3Dltr><roice3@gmail.com>=
;=20
wrote:

Hi =
Nan,


Thank you for your feedback.



Do not worry - I have copies of all the binaries I've uploaded in =
the=20
past.  However, I think it will be better to change the latest cod=
e to=20
be able to load the older files.  The persistence needed to change=
for=20
ET and VT puzzles, and it was easier to put that loading message in for=
=20
those instead of support for loading older files.  I had wondered =
if=20
that might be ok, but I should have made a stronger effort to be backwa=
rd=20
compatible from the start.  I will ping you when a fix is=20
available (hopefully this weekend).  



Also, I will make middle slicing for spherical puzzles the next it=
em to=20
implement after the load fix.  It should not be very difficult.IV>


On the wiki topic, it will be easy to programmatically generate a =
wiki=20
table with the current puzzle list, so I will take a shot at one to see=
what=20
you think of it.  And I will privately send you a list of the new =
names=20
which correspond to the puzzles you've already solved.  Sorry agai=
n=20
about that. I had to change the naming since previous names like "ET {3=
,7}"=20
are now ambiguous.



Take Care,

Roice



On Mon, Feb 6, 2012 at 11:54 PM, schuma =20
dir=3Dltr>< target=3D_blank>mananself@gmail.com> wrote:

H=
i=20
Roice,

Thank you for making so many puzzles!!! I usually don't=
=20
complain about too many puzzles. But this version has way too=20
many.

I think I need a good way to keep track of the puzzles t=
hat=20
have been solved. The list I created before doesn't have structures. =
It=20
would be good if someone, or I, can create a table that reflects the=
=20
current tree structure of the puzzles. I think, if so, I'm more motiv=
ated=20
to solve them.

I haven't looked into the new terminology and d=
on't=20
know how hard it would be to translate the old names to the new names=
. But=20
many of the old log files don't load. Probably I don't really need to=
open=20
them. But it would be nice, for me, to have a previous version of v2 =
that=20
can open the older logs, just in case I want to look at them,=20
occasionally. After all, I spent 40+ hours on the {3,7} puzzles. My o=
ld=20
version has already been replaced by the new version. Roice, do you h=
ave a=20
copy of the old version? Can you put it somewhere?

In Magic Ti=
le=20
v1, clicking while holding numbers "2" will turn the second layer. I =
find=20
it convenient to make middle layer turns. Is it hard to implement in =
v2?=20
In some puzzles like Dodecahedron F2:0:1, the middle layer turns will=
be=20
useful.

Nan



=



------=_NextPart_000_0038_01CCE679.2DD05100--




From: "schuma" <mananself@gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 11 Feb 2012 09:12:16 -0000
Subject: Re: Super Puzzle Sunday!



Hi Roice,

I have migrated my records to this wiki page. It looks pretty good. I sugge=
st keeping a list of all the solvers for each puzzle. For example, under th=
e first puzzle ce_Twisting> I'm keeping both Eduard's and my records.=20

Nan


--- In 4D_Cubing@yahoogroups.com, Roice Nelson wrote:
>
> I generated a page in the wiki with a set of tables corresponding to the
> new MT puzzle tree structure. The generation of this can easily be chang=
ed
> if you guys would like different columns, etc.
>=20
> http://wiki.superliminal.com/wiki/MagicTile_v2_Solutions
>=20
> The page is a bit unwieldy, though it is nice that sections can easily be
> edited individually. I think separating it into three different pages (o=
ne
> for each geometry type) would improve things. Let me know if you think
> this looks like a useful path for solution tracking.
>=20
> Roice
>=20
>=20
> On Tue, Feb 7, 2012 at 11:04 AM, Roice Nelson wrote:
>=20
> > Hi Nan,
> >
> > Thank you for your feedback.
> >
> > Do not worry - I have copies of all the binaries I've uploaded in the
> > past. However, I think it will be better to change the latest code to =
be
> > able to load the older files. The persistence needed to change for ET =
and
> > VT puzzles, and it was easier to put that loading message in for those
> > instead of support for loading older files. I had wondered if that mig=
ht
> > be ok, but I should have made a stronger effort to be backward compatib=
le
> > from the start. I will ping you when a fix is available (hopefully thi=
s
> > weekend).
> >
> > Also, I will make middle slicing for spherical puzzles the next item to
> > implement after the load fix. It should not be very difficult.
> >
> > On the wiki topic, it will be easy to programmatically generate a wiki
> > table with the current puzzle list, so I will take a shot at one to see
> > what you think of it. And I will privately send you a list of the new
> > names which correspond to the puzzles you've already solved. Sorry aga=
in
> > about that. I had to change the naming since previous names like "ET {3=
,7}"
> > are now ambiguous.
> >
> > Take Care,
> > Roice
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Feb 6, 2012 at 11:54 PM, schuma wrote:
> >
> >> Hi Roice,
> >>
> >> Thank you for making so many puzzles!!! I usually don't complain about
> >> too many puzzles. But this version has way too many.
> >>
> >> I think I need a good way to keep track of the puzzles that have been
> >> solved. The list I created before doesn't have structures. It would be=
good
> >> if someone, or I, can create a table that reflects the current tree
> >> structure of the puzzles. I think, if so, I'm more motivated to solve =
them.
> >>
> >> I haven't looked into the new terminology and don't know how hard it
> >> would be to translate the old names to the new names. But many of the =
old
> >> log files don't load. Probably I don't really need to open them. But i=
t
> >> would be nice, for me, to have a previous version of v2 that can open =
the
> >> older logs, just in case I want to look at them, occasionally. After a=
ll, I
> >> spent 40+ hours on the {3,7} puzzles. My old version has already been
> >> replaced by the new version. Roice, do you have a copy of the old vers=
ion?
> >> Can you put it somewhere?
> >>
> >> In Magic Tile v1, clicking while holding numbers "2" will turn the sec=
ond
> >> layer. I find it convenient to make middle layer turns. Is it hard to
> >> implement in v2? In some puzzles like Dodecahedron F2:0:1, the middle =
layer
> >> turns will be useful.
> >>
> >> Nan
> >>
> >>
>




From: "Eduard" <baumann@mcnet.ch>
Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2012 14:56:29 -0000
Subject: Re: Super Puzzle Sunday!



In the tracking for solvers for the new MagicTile vs 2 we have also place f=
or non-monster puzzles.
These small puzzles are not automatically much simpler. The have clearly fe=
wer pieces but often often not enough place to construct narrow sequences. =
I take as an example puzzle 1 :=3D the spherical tetrahedron edge turning E=
1:0:0. My method consists allways to search a small but sufficient set of =
sequences (SSSS) for the solving "with many twists". The normal Rubik's Cub=
e has typically 4 sequences: a 3 cycle foredges, a 3 cycle for corners, a r=
otator on place for edges and a rotator on place for corners. The opposite =
is having a large set of small sequences (LSSS; for solves "with minimal t=
wist number"). For puzzle 1 I have found using blindly commutators of commu=
tators one macro which moves only corners (a double switch where no corner =
stays fixed) and a macro which moves only inner faces (a double switch wher=
e no inner face stays fixed). I have no macro for edges only and no macro f=
or outer faces only. I have no 3 cycles, no rotators.
Nan you certainly don't use SSSS for small puzzles. Can you nevertheless te=
ll us how you construct a sequence for outer faces or for edges in puzzle 1=
?


--- In 4D_Cubing@yahoogroups.com, "schuma" wrote:
>
> Hi Roice,
>=20
> I have migrated my records to this wiki page. It looks pretty good. I sug=
gest keeping a list of all the solvers for each puzzle. For example, under =
the first puzzle Face_Twisting> I'm keeping both Eduard's and my records.=20
>=20
> Nan
>=20
>=20
> --- In 4D_Cubing@yahoogroups.com, Roice Nelson wrote:
> >
> > I generated a page in the wiki with a set of tables corresponding to th=
e
> > new MT puzzle tree structure. The generation of this can easily be cha=
nged
> > if you guys would like different columns, etc.
> >=20
> > http://wiki.superliminal.com/wiki/MagicTile_v2_Solutions
> >=20
> > The page is a bit unwieldy, though it is nice that sections can easily =
be
> > edited individually. I think separating it into three different pages =
(one
> > for each geometry type) would improve things. Let me know if you think
> > this looks like a useful path for solution tracking.
> >=20
> > Roice
> >=20
> >=20
> > On Tue, Feb 7, 2012 at 11:04 AM, Roice Nelson wrote:
> >=20
> > > Hi Nan,
> > >
> > > Thank you for your feedback.
> > >
> > > Do not worry - I have copies of all the binaries I've uploaded in the
> > > past. However, I think it will be better to change the latest code t=
o be
> > > able to load the older files. The persistence needed to change for E=
T and
> > > VT puzzles, and it was easier to put that loading message in for thos=
e
> > > instead of support for loading older files. I had wondered if that m=
ight
> > > be ok, but I should have made a stronger effort to be backward compat=
ible
> > > from the start. I will ping you when a fix is available (hopefully t=
his
> > > weekend).
> > >
> > > Also, I will make middle slicing for spherical puzzles the next item =
to
> > > implement after the load fix. It should not be very difficult.
> > >
> > > On the wiki topic, it will be easy to programmatically generate a wik=
i
> > > table with the current puzzle list, so I will take a shot at one to s=
ee
> > > what you think of it. And I will privately send you a list of the ne=
w
> > > names which correspond to the puzzles you've already solved. Sorry a=
gain
> > > about that. I had to change the naming since previous names like "ET =
{3,7}"
> > > are now ambiguous.
> > >
> > > Take Care,
> > > Roice
> > >
> > >
> > > On Mon, Feb 6, 2012 at 11:54 PM, schuma wrote:
> > >
> > >> Hi Roice,
> > >>
> > >> Thank you for making so many puzzles!!! I usually don't complain abo=
ut
> > >> too many puzzles. But this version has way too many.
> > >>
> > >> I think I need a good way to keep track of the puzzles that have bee=
n
> > >> solved. The list I created before doesn't have structures. It would =
be good
> > >> if someone, or I, can create a table that reflects the current tree
> > >> structure of the puzzles. I think, if so, I'm more motivated to solv=
e them.
> > >>
> > >> I haven't looked into the new terminology and don't know how hard it
> > >> would be to translate the old names to the new names. But many of th=
e old
> > >> log files don't load. Probably I don't really need to open them. But=
it
> > >> would be nice, for me, to have a previous version of v2 that can ope=
n the
> > >> older logs, just in case I want to look at them, occasionally. After=
all, I
> > >> spent 40+ hours on the {3,7} puzzles. My old version has already bee=
n
> > >> replaced by the new version. Roice, do you have a copy of the old ve=
rsion?
> > >> Can you put it somewhere?
> > >>
> > >> In Magic Tile v1, clicking while holding numbers "2" will turn the s=
econd
> > >> layer. I find it convenient to make middle layer turns. Is it hard t=
o
> > >> implement in v2? In some puzzles like Dodecahedron F2:0:1, the middl=
e layer
> > >> turns will be useful.
> > >>
> > >> Nan
> > >>
> > >>
> >
>




From: "Eduard" <baumann@mcnet.ch>
Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2012 16:39:01 -0000
Subject: Re: Super Puzzle Sunday!



Sorry, there is a typo: puzzle 1 :=3D ... E 0:0:1 , not E 1:0:0.

--- In 4D_Cubing@yahoogroups.com, "Eduard" wrote:
>
> In the tracking for solvers for the new MagicTile vs 2 we have also place=
for non-monster puzzles.
> These small puzzles are not automatically much simpler. The have clearly =
fewer pieces but often often not enough place to construct narrow sequences=
. I take as an example puzzle 1 :=3D the spherical tetrahedron edge turning=
E 1:0:0. My method consists allways to search a small but sufficient set o=
f sequences (SSSS) for the solving "with many twists". The normal Rubik's C=
ube has typically 4 sequences: a 3 cycle foredges, a 3 cycle for corners, a=
rotator on place for edges and a rotator on place for corners. The opposit=
e is having a large set of small sequences (LSSS; for solves "with minimal=
twist number"). For puzzle 1 I have found using blindly commutators of com=
mutators one macro which moves only corners (a double switch where no corne=
r stays fixed) and a macro which moves only inner faces (a double switch wh=
ere no inner face stays fixed). I have no macro for edges only and no macro=
for outer faces only. I have no 3 cycles, no rotators.
> Nan you certainly don't use SSSS for small puzzles. Can you nevertheless =
tell us how you construct a sequence for outer faces or for edges in puzzle=
1?
>=20
>=20
> --- In 4D_Cubing@yahoogroups.com, "schuma" wrote:
> >
> > Hi Roice,
> >=20
> > I have migrated my records to this wiki page. It looks pretty good. I s=
uggest keeping a list of all the solvers for each puzzle. For example, unde=
r the first puzzle s#Face_Twisting> I'm keeping both Eduard's and my records.=20
> >=20
> > Nan
> >=20
> >=20
> > --- In 4D_Cubing@yahoogroups.com, Roice Nelson wrote:
> > >
> > > I generated a page in the wiki with a set of tables corresponding to =
the
> > > new MT puzzle tree structure. The generation of this can easily be c=
hanged
> > > if you guys would like different columns, etc.
> > >=20
> > > http://wiki.superliminal.com/wiki/MagicTile_v2_Solutions
> > >=20
> > > The page is a bit unwieldy, though it is nice that sections can easil=
y be
> > > edited individually. I think separating it into three different page=
s (one
> > > for each geometry type) would improve things. Let me know if you thi=
nk
> > > this looks like a useful path for solution tracking.
> > >=20
> > > Roice
> > >=20
> > >=20
> > > On Tue, Feb 7, 2012 at 11:04 AM, Roice Nelson wrote:
> > >=20
> > > > Hi Nan,
> > > >
> > > > Thank you for your feedback.
> > > >
> > > > Do not worry - I have copies of all the binaries I've uploaded in t=
he
> > > > past. However, I think it will be better to change the latest code=
to be
> > > > able to load the older files. The persistence needed to change for=
ET and
> > > > VT puzzles, and it was easier to put that loading message in for th=
ose
> > > > instead of support for loading older files. I had wondered if that=
might
> > > > be ok, but I should have made a stronger effort to be backward comp=
atible
> > > > from the start. I will ping you when a fix is available (hopefully=
this
> > > > weekend).
> > > >
> > > > Also, I will make middle slicing for spherical puzzles the next ite=
m to
> > > > implement after the load fix. It should not be very difficult.
> > > >
> > > > On the wiki topic, it will be easy to programmatically generate a w=
iki
> > > > table with the current puzzle list, so I will take a shot at one to=
see
> > > > what you think of it. And I will privately send you a list of the =
new
> > > > names which correspond to the puzzles you've already solved. Sorry=
again
> > > > about that. I had to change the naming since previous names like "E=
T {3,7}"
> > > > are now ambiguous.
> > > >
> > > > Take Care,
> > > > Roice
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Mon, Feb 6, 2012 at 11:54 PM, schuma wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> Hi Roice,
> > > >>
> > > >> Thank you for making so many puzzles!!! I usually don't complain a=
bout
> > > >> too many puzzles. But this version has way too many.
> > > >>
> > > >> I think I need a good way to keep track of the puzzles that have b=
een
> > > >> solved. The list I created before doesn't have structures. It woul=
d be good
> > > >> if someone, or I, can create a table that reflects the current tre=
e
> > > >> structure of the puzzles. I think, if so, I'm more motivated to so=
lve them.
> > > >>
> > > >> I haven't looked into the new terminology and don't know how hard =
it
> > > >> would be to translate the old names to the new names. But many of =
the old
> > > >> log files don't load. Probably I don't really need to open them. B=
ut it
> > > >> would be nice, for me, to have a previous version of v2 that can o=
pen the
> > > >> older logs, just in case I want to look at them, occasionally. Aft=
er all, I
> > > >> spent 40+ hours on the {3,7} puzzles. My old version has already b=
een
> > > >> replaced by the new version. Roice, do you have a copy of the old =
version?
> > > >> Can you put it somewhere?
> > > >>
> > > >> In Magic Tile v1, clicking while holding numbers "2" will turn the=
second
> > > >> layer. I find it convenient to make middle layer turns. Is it hard=
to
> > > >> implement in v2? In some puzzles like Dodecahedron F2:0:1, the mid=
dle layer
> > > >> turns will be useful.
> > > >>
> > > >> Nan
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > >
> >
>




From: "schuma" <mananself@gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2012 21:00:28 -0000
Subject: Re: Super Puzzle Sunday!



Hi Ed,

Tetrahedron E0:1:1 is certainly an interesting puzzle that is simple but no=
t trivial.=20

First, it is a sticker variation of the 180-degree-only Rubik's cube. I don=
't know if you have tried scrambling and solving the Rubik's cube using onl=
y 180-deg turns. But puzzle 1 is nothing but that, except four corners beco=
me 1C, and the centers become 2C. As an result, we need to worry about the =
orientations of the Rubik's cube centers. Based on this observation, I can =
borrow some algorithms from the Rubik's cube.=20

Here's my procedure of solving puzzle 1:

1. The 2C pieces never moves, they only rotate. So they determine the globa=
l orientation of the puzzle.=20

2. Solve 3C and 1C triangles, free style. This is like solving all the corn=
ers on a 180 only Rubik's cube. This step affects the orientations of 2C an=
d the 1C quadrilaterals. I don't have particular algorithms, but it is easy=
.

3. Fix orientations of 2C. If A and B denote two adjacent edges, the algori=
thm to flip the two 2C pieces on these two edges is [A,B]x3. This correspon=
ds to [R2,U2]x3 on Rubik's cube. This steps affects the=20
1C quadrilaterals.

4. 3-cycle 1C quadrilaterals. Let A, B, and C denote three edges that meet =
at one vertex. The algorithm is [A,B,A,C]x2. You can try it to see the effe=
ct. It's a pure 3-cycle. It corresponds to [U2,F2,U2,R2]x2 on Rubik's cube.=
This algorithm is also very useful on the edge-turning cube (Helicopter cu=
be) and edge-turning dodecahedron. It is a [3,1] commutator with X=3DABA, a=
nd Y=3DC.=20

My general methodology is still SSSS, in your notation. But keep in mind th=
at only the last step is necessarily a pure 3-cycle (doesn't affect other t=
ypes of pieces). The last but one step may affect the type of pieces to be =
solved in the last step, and so on. So the number of moves for each algorit=
hm is not too high.=20

Please let me know how you think of my method.

Nan

--- In 4D_Cubing@yahoogroups.com, "Eduard" wrote:
>
> In the tracking for solvers for the new MagicTile vs 2 we have also place=
for non-monster puzzles.
> These small puzzles are not automatically much simpler. The have clearly =
fewer pieces but often often not enough place to construct narrow sequences=
. I take as an example puzzle 1 :=3D the spherical tetrahedron edge turning=
E 1:0:0. My method consists allways to search a small but sufficient set o=
f sequences (SSSS) for the solving "with many twists". The normal Rubik's C=
ube has typically 4 sequences: a 3 cycle foredges, a 3 cycle for corners, a=
rotator on place for edges and a rotator on place for corners. The opposit=
e is having a large set of small sequences (LSSS; for solves "with minimal=
twist number"). For puzzle 1 I have found using blindly commutators of com=
mutators one macro which moves only corners (a double switch where no corne=
r stays fixed) and a macro which moves only inner faces (a double switch wh=
ere no inner face stays fixed). I have no macro for edges only and no macro=
for outer faces only. I have no 3 cycles, no rotators.
> Nan you certainly don't use SSSS for small puzzles. Can you nevertheless =
tell us how you construct a sequence for outer faces or for edges in puzzle=
1?
>=20
>=20




From: "Eduard" <baumann@mcnet.ch>
Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2012 23:43:44 -0000
Subject: Re: Super Puzzle Sunday!



Thanks Nan,

Your hints for "Tetrahedron E0:0:1" are very valuable.=20
I never solved the 180=B0Rubik.
It is not so easy to see the equivalence between tetra E0:0:1 and Rubik 180=
=B0. How did you discover it? 4 1C triangles + 4 3C triangles =3D=3D> 8 180=
=B0corners; 12 1C quadrilaterals =3D=3D> 12 180=B0edges; 6 2C quadrilateral=
s =3D=3D> 6 180=B0faces. Are you right with your sentence "centers become 2=
C"?=20
I solved Tetrahedron E0:0:1 with 160 twists. You did it with 48.=20
I also solved the Tetrahedron E1:0:0.5 (easier).

--- In 4D_Cubing@yahoogroups.com, "schuma" wrote:
>
> Hi Ed,
>=20
> Tetrahedron E0:1:1 is certainly an interesting puzzle that is simple but =
not trivial.=20
>=20
> First, it is a sticker variation of the 180-degree-only Rubik's cube. I d=
on't know if you have tried scrambling and solving the Rubik's cube using o=
nly 180-deg turns. But puzzle 1 is nothing but that, except four corners be=
come 1C, and the centers become 2C. As an result, we need to worry about th=
e orientations of the Rubik's cube centers. Based on this observation, I ca=
n borrow some algorithms from the Rubik's cube.=20
>=20
> Here's my procedure of solving puzzle 1:
>=20
> 1. The 2C pieces never moves, they only rotate. So they determine the glo=
bal orientation of the puzzle.=20
>=20
> 2. Solve 3C and 1C triangles, free style. This is like solving all the co=
rners on a 180 only Rubik's cube. This step affects the orientations of 2C =
and the 1C quadrilaterals. I don't have particular algorithms, but it is ea=
sy.
>=20
> 3. Fix orientations of 2C. If A and B denote two adjacent edges, the algo=
rithm to flip the two 2C pieces on these two edges is [A,B]x3. This corresp=
onds to [R2,U2]x3 on Rubik's cube. This steps affects the=20
> 1C quadrilaterals.
>=20
> 4. 3-cycle 1C quadrilaterals. Let A, B, and C denote three edges that mee=
t at one vertex. The algorithm is [A,B,A,C]x2. You can try it to see the ef=
fect. It's a pure 3-cycle. It corresponds to [U2,F2,U2,R2]x2 on Rubik's cub=
e. This algorithm is also very useful on the edge-turning cube (Helicopter =
cube) and edge-turning dodecahedron. It is a [3,1] commutator with X=3DABA,=
and Y=3DC.=20
>=20
> My general methodology is still SSSS, in your notation. But keep in mind =
that only the last step is necessarily a pure 3-cycle (doesn't affect other=
types of pieces). The last but one step may affect the type of pieces to b=
e solved in the last step, and so on. So the number of moves for each algor=
ithm is not too high.=20
>=20
> Please let me know how you think of my method.
>=20
> Nan
>=20
> --- In 4D_Cubing@yahoogroups.com, "Eduard" wrote:
> >
> > In the tracking for solvers for the new MagicTile vs 2 we have also pla=
ce for non-monster puzzles.
> > These small puzzles are not automatically much simpler. The have clearl=
y fewer pieces but often often not enough place to construct narrow sequenc=
es. I take as an example puzzle 1 :=3D the spherical tetrahedron edge turni=
ng E 1:0:0. My method consists allways to search a small but sufficient set=
of sequences (SSSS) for the solving "with many twists". The normal Rubik's=
Cube has typically 4 sequences: a 3 cycle foredges, a 3 cycle for corners,=
a rotator on place for edges and a rotator on place for corners. The oppos=
ite is having a large set of small sequences (LSSS; for solves "with minim=
al twist number"). For puzzle 1 I have found using blindly commutators of c=
ommutators one macro which moves only corners (a double switch where no cor=
ner stays fixed) and a macro which moves only inner faces (a double switch =
where no inner face stays fixed). I have no macro for edges only and no mac=
ro for outer faces only. I have no 3 cycles, no rotators.
> > Nan you certainly don't use SSSS for small puzzles. Can you nevertheles=
s tell us how you construct a sequence for outer faces or for edges in puzz=
le 1?
> >=20
> >
>




From: "Eduard" <baumann@mcnet.ch>
Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2012 23:58:47 -0000
Subject: Re: Super Puzzle Sunday!



Sorry, your sentence "centers become 2C" is perfectly right.

--- In 4D_Cubing@yahoogroups.com, "Eduard" wrote:
>
> Thanks Nan,
>=20
> Your hints for "Tetrahedron E0:0:1" are very valuable.=20
> I never solved the 180=B0Rubik.
> It is not so easy to see the equivalence between tetra E0:0:1 and Rubik 1=
80=B0. How did you discover it? 4 1C triangles + 4 3C triangles =3D=3D> 8 1=
80=B0corners; 12 1C quadrilaterals =3D=3D> 12 180=B0edges; 6 2C quadrilater=
als =3D=3D> 6 180=B0faces. Are you right with your sentence "centers become=
2C"?=20
> I solved Tetrahedron E0:0:1 with 160 twists. You did it with 48.=20
> I also solved the Tetrahedron E1:0:0.5 (easier).
>=20
> --- In 4D_Cubing@yahoogroups.com, "schuma" wrote:
> >
> > Hi Ed,
> >=20
> > Tetrahedron E0:1:1 is certainly an interesting puzzle that is simple bu=
t not trivial.=20
> >=20
> > First, it is a sticker variation of the 180-degree-only Rubik's cube. I=
don't know if you have tried scrambling and solving the Rubik's cube using=
only 180-deg turns. But puzzle 1 is nothing but that, except four corners =
become 1C, and the centers become 2C. As an result, we need to worry about =
the orientations of the Rubik's cube centers. Based on this observation, I =
can borrow some algorithms from the Rubik's cube.=20
> >=20
> > Here's my procedure of solving puzzle 1:
> >=20
> > 1. The 2C pieces never moves, they only rotate. So they determine the g=
lobal orientation of the puzzle.=20
> >=20
> > 2. Solve 3C and 1C triangles, free style. This is like solving all the =
corners on a 180 only Rubik's cube. This step affects the orientations of 2=
C and the 1C quadrilaterals. I don't have particular algorithms, but it is =
easy.
> >=20
> > 3. Fix orientations of 2C. If A and B denote two adjacent edges, the al=
gorithm to flip the two 2C pieces on these two edges is [A,B]x3. This corre=
sponds to [R2,U2]x3 on Rubik's cube. This steps affects the=20
> > 1C quadrilaterals.
> >=20
> > 4. 3-cycle 1C quadrilaterals. Let A, B, and C denote three edges that m=
eet at one vertex. The algorithm is [A,B,A,C]x2. You can try it to see the =
effect. It's a pure 3-cycle. It corresponds to [U2,F2,U2,R2]x2 on Rubik's c=
ube. This algorithm is also very useful on the edge-turning cube (Helicopte=
r cube) and edge-turning dodecahedron. It is a [3,1] commutator with X=3DAB=
A, and Y=3DC.=20
> >=20
> > My general methodology is still SSSS, in your notation. But keep in min=
d that only the last step is necessarily a pure 3-cycle (doesn't affect oth=
er types of pieces). The last but one step may affect the type of pieces to=
be solved in the last step, and so on. So the number of moves for each alg=
orithm is not too high.=20
> >=20
> > Please let me know how you think of my method.
> >=20
> > Nan
> >=20
> > --- In 4D_Cubing@yahoogroups.com, "Eduard" wrote:
> > >
> > > In the tracking for solvers for the new MagicTile vs 2 we have also p=
lace for non-monster puzzles.
> > > These small puzzles are not automatically much simpler. The have clea=
rly fewer pieces but often often not enough place to construct narrow seque=
nces. I take as an example puzzle 1 :=3D the spherical tetrahedron edge tur=
ning E 1:0:0. My method consists allways to search a small but sufficient s=
et of sequences (SSSS) for the solving "with many twists". The normal Rubik=
's Cube has typically 4 sequences: a 3 cycle foredges, a 3 cycle for corner=
s, a rotator on place for edges and a rotator on place for corners. The opp=
osite is having a large set of small sequences (LSSS; for solves "with min=
imal twist number"). For puzzle 1 I have found using blindly commutators of=
commutators one macro which moves only corners (a double switch where no c=
orner stays fixed) and a macro which moves only inner faces (a double switc=
h where no inner face stays fixed). I have no macro for edges only and no m=
acro for outer faces only. I have no 3 cycles, no rotators.
> > > Nan you certainly don't use SSSS for small puzzles. Can you neverthel=
ess tell us how you construct a sequence for outer faces or for edges in pu=
zzle 1?
> > >=20
> > >
> >
>




From: "Eduard" <baumann@mcnet.ch>
Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2012 10:17:20 -0000
Subject: Re: Super Puzzle Sunday!



"Shortest" solver vs "many" solver.
I have discovered only now that in MagicTile vs 2 after an application of a=
macro the natural undoing with the opposite mouse button costs a lot of tw=
ists. Instead of this you must undo the macro application by ctrl Z and thi=
s is possible! I very often undo macro applications because I'm learning by=
doing. In the program MPUlt there is an option "optimize" which corrects t=
hat situation partially.
A perfect "optimize" procedure is probably not easy to implement.
Iteratively eliminate local identity groups of twists.

--- In 4D_Cubing@yahoogroups.com, "Eduard" wrote:
>
> Sorry, your sentence "centers become 2C" is perfectly right.
>=20
> --- In 4D_Cubing@yahoogroups.com, "Eduard" wrote:
> >
> > Thanks Nan,
> >=20
> > Your hints for "Tetrahedron E0:0:1" are very valuable.=20
> > I never solved the 180=B0Rubik.
> > It is not so easy to see the equivalence between tetra E0:0:1 and Rubik=
180=B0. How did you discover it? 4 1C triangles + 4 3C triangles =3D=3D> 8=
180=B0corners; 12 1C quadrilaterals =3D=3D> 12 180=B0edges; 6 2C quadrilat=
erals =3D=3D> 6 180=B0faces. Are you right with your sentence "centers beco=
me 2C"?=20
> > I solved Tetrahedron E0:0:1 with 160 twists. You did it with 48.=20
> > I also solved the Tetrahedron E1:0:0.5 (easier).
> >=20
> > --- In 4D_Cubing@yahoogroups.com, "schuma" wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi Ed,
> > >=20
> > > Tetrahedron E0:1:1 is certainly an interesting puzzle that is simple =
but not trivial.=20
> > >=20
> > > First, it is a sticker variation of the 180-degree-only Rubik's cube.=
I don't know if you have tried scrambling and solving the Rubik's cube usi=
ng only 180-deg turns. But puzzle 1 is nothing but that, except four corner=
s become 1C, and the centers become 2C. As an result, we need to worry abou=
t the orientations of the Rubik's cube centers. Based on this observation, =
I can borrow some algorithms from the Rubik's cube.=20
> > >=20
> > > Here's my procedure of solving puzzle 1:
> > >=20
> > > 1. The 2C pieces never moves, they only rotate. So they determine the=
global orientation of the puzzle.=20
> > >=20
> > > 2. Solve 3C and 1C triangles, free style. This is like solving all th=
e corners on a 180 only Rubik's cube. This step affects the orientations of=
2C and the 1C quadrilaterals. I don't have particular algorithms, but it i=
s easy.
> > >=20
> > > 3. Fix orientations of 2C. If A and B denote two adjacent edges, the =
algorithm to flip the two 2C pieces on these two edges is [A,B]x3. This cor=
responds to [R2,U2]x3 on Rubik's cube. This steps affects the=20
> > > 1C quadrilaterals.
> > >=20
> > > 4. 3-cycle 1C quadrilaterals. Let A, B, and C denote three edges that=
meet at one vertex. The algorithm is [A,B,A,C]x2. You can try it to see th=
e effect. It's a pure 3-cycle. It corresponds to [U2,F2,U2,R2]x2 on Rubik's=
cube. This algorithm is also very useful on the edge-turning cube (Helicop=
ter cube) and edge-turning dodecahedron. It is a [3,1] commutator with X=3D=
ABA, and Y=3DC.=20
> > >=20
> > > My general methodology is still SSSS, in your notation. But keep in m=
ind that only the last step is necessarily a pure 3-cycle (doesn't affect o=
ther types of pieces). The last but one step may affect the type of pieces =
to be solved in the last step, and so on. So the number of moves for each a=
lgorithm is not too high.=20
> > >=20
> > > Please let me know how you think of my method.
> > >=20
> > > Nan
> > >=20
> > > --- In 4D_Cubing@yahoogroups.com, "Eduard" wrote:
> > > >
> > > > In the tracking for solvers for the new MagicTile vs 2 we have also=
place for non-monster puzzles.
> > > > These small puzzles are not automatically much simpler. The have cl=
early fewer pieces but often often not enough place to construct narrow seq=
uences. I take as an example puzzle 1 :=3D the spherical tetrahedron edge t=
urning E 1:0:0. My method consists allways to search a small but sufficient=
set of sequences (SSSS) for the solving "with many twists". The normal Rub=
ik's Cube has typically 4 sequences: a 3 cycle foredges, a 3 cycle for corn=
ers, a rotator on place for edges and a rotator on place for corners. The o=
pposite is having a large set of small sequences (LSSS; for solves "with m=
inimal twist number"). For puzzle 1 I have found using blindly commutators =
of commutators one macro which moves only corners (a double switch where no=
corner stays fixed) and a macro which moves only inner faces (a double swi=
tch where no inner face stays fixed). I have no macro for edges only and no=
macro for outer faces only. I have no 3 cycles, no rotators.
> > > > Nan you certainly don't use SSSS for small puzzles. Can you neverth=
eless tell us how you construct a sequence for outer faces or for edges in =
puzzle 1?
> > > >=20
> > > >
> > >
> >
>




From: Roice Nelson <roice3@gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2012 10:13:54 -0600
Subject: Re: [MC4D] Re: Super Puzzle Sunday!



--bcaec554d832dd4fc404b9537693
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Hi Ed,

You will be interested to read this short thread from late
2007
regarding
the problem of finding an "optimize" procedure. Melinda shared some nice
visual analogies to help think about what an optimizer would do. It does
seem like a difficult problem!

Roice


On Sun, Feb 19, 2012 at 4:17 AM, Eduard wrote:

> "Shortest" solver vs "many" solver.
> I have discovered only now that in MagicTile vs 2 after an application of
> a macro the natural undoing with the opposite mouse button costs a lot of
> twists. Instead of this you must undo the macro application by ctrl Z and
> this is possible! I very often undo macro applications because I'm learning
> by doing. In the program MPUlt there is an option "optimize" which corrects
> that situation partially.
> A perfect "optimize" procedure is probably not easy to implement.
> Iteratively eliminate local identity groups of twists.

--bcaec554d832dd4fc404b9537693
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Ed,


You will be interested to read games.groups.yahoo.com/group/4D_Cubing/message/422">this short thread from =
late 2007
=A0regarding the problem of finding an "optimize" pr=
ocedure. =A0Melinda shared some nice visual analogies to help think about w=
hat an optimizer would do. =A0It does seem like a difficult problem!


Roice


On S=
un, Feb 19, 2012 at 4:17 AM, Eduard <:baumann@mcnet.ch">baumann@mcnet.ch> wrote:
ass=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;p=
adding-left:1ex">
"Shortest" solver vs "many" solver.

I have discovered only now that in MagicTile vs 2 after an application of a=
macro the natural undoing with the opposite mouse button costs a lot of tw=
ists. Instead of this you must undo the macro application by ctrl Z and thi=
s is possible! I very often undo macro applications because I'm learnin=
g by doing. In the program MPUlt there is an option "optimize" wh=
ich corrects that situation partially.


A perfect "optimize" procedure is probably not easy to implement.=


Iteratively eliminate local identity groups of twists.
div>

--bcaec554d832dd4fc404b9537693--




From: "Eduard" <baumann@mcnet.ch>
Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2012 11:40:01 -0000
Subject: Re: Super Puzzle Sunday!



Hi Roice,
In MagicTile some puzzles become completely unplayable, if the depth is ch=
osen so that individualised multicolor elements can be separated in pieces.=
In this case it would be necessary to label all these pieces which cannot =
be done in your program easily. When the the puzzle is solved in MT: when c=
olors are okay or when all pieces are at home?
I tried MT ell/sphere/cube/E 1:0:1. Edges can be dissected!
Ed

--- In 4D_Cubing@yahoogroups.com, "schuma" wrote:
>
> Hi Roice,
>=20
> I have migrated my records to this wiki page. It looks pretty good. I sug=
gest keeping a list of all the solvers for each puzzle. For example, under =
the first puzzle Face_Twisting> I'm keeping both Eduard's and my records.=20
>=20
> Nan
>=20
>=20
> --- In 4D_Cubing@yahoogroups.com, Roice Nelson wrote:
> >
> > I generated a page in the wiki with a set of tables corresponding to th=
e
> > new MT puzzle tree structure. The generation of this can easily be cha=
nged
> > if you guys would like different columns, etc.
> >=20
> > http://wiki.superliminal.com/wiki/MagicTile_v2_Solutions
> >=20
> > The page is a bit unwieldy, though it is nice that sections can easily =
be
> > edited individually. I think separating it into three different pages =
(one
> > for each geometry type) would improve things. Let me know if you think
> > this looks like a useful path for solution tracking.
> >=20
> > Roice
> >=20
> >=20
> > On Tue, Feb 7, 2012 at 11:04 AM, Roice Nelson wrote:
> >=20
> > > Hi Nan,
> > >
> > > Thank you for your feedback.
> > >
> > > Do not worry - I have copies of all the binaries I've uploaded in the
> > > past. However, I think it will be better to change the latest code t=
o be
> > > able to load the older files. The persistence needed to change for E=
T and
> > > VT puzzles, and it was easier to put that loading message in for thos=
e
> > > instead of support for loading older files. I had wondered if that m=
ight
> > > be ok, but I should have made a stronger effort to be backward compat=
ible
> > > from the start. I will ping you when a fix is available (hopefully t=
his
> > > weekend).
> > >
> > > Also, I will make middle slicing for spherical puzzles the next item =
to
> > > implement after the load fix. It should not be very difficult.
> > >
> > > On the wiki topic, it will be easy to programmatically generate a wik=
i
> > > table with the current puzzle list, so I will take a shot at one to s=
ee
> > > what you think of it. And I will privately send you a list of the ne=
w
> > > names which correspond to the puzzles you've already solved. Sorry a=
gain
> > > about that. I had to change the naming since previous names like "ET =
{3,7}"
> > > are now ambiguous.
> > >
> > > Take Care,
> > > Roice
> > >
> > >
> > > On Mon, Feb 6, 2012 at 11:54 PM, schuma wrote:
> > >
> > >> Hi Roice,
> > >>
> > >> Thank you for making so many puzzles!!! I usually don't complain abo=
ut
> > >> too many puzzles. But this version has way too many.
> > >>
> > >> I think I need a good way to keep track of the puzzles that have bee=
n
> > >> solved. The list I created before doesn't have structures. It would =
be good
> > >> if someone, or I, can create a table that reflects the current tree
> > >> structure of the puzzles. I think, if so, I'm more motivated to solv=
e them.
> > >>
> > >> I haven't looked into the new terminology and don't know how hard it
> > >> would be to translate the old names to the new names. But many of th=
e old
> > >> log files don't load. Probably I don't really need to open them. But=
it
> > >> would be nice, for me, to have a previous version of v2 that can ope=
n the
> > >> older logs, just in case I want to look at them, occasionally. After=
all, I
> > >> spent 40+ hours on the {3,7} puzzles. My old version has already bee=
n
> > >> replaced by the new version. Roice, do you have a copy of the old ve=
rsion?
> > >> Can you put it somewhere?
> > >>
> > >> In Magic Tile v1, clicking while holding numbers "2" will turn the s=
econd
> > >> layer. I find it convenient to make middle layer turns. Is it hard t=
o
> > >> implement in v2? In some puzzles like Dodecahedron F2:0:1, the middl=
e layer
> > >> turns will be useful.
> > >>
> > >> Nan
> > >>
> > >>
> >
>




From: Roice Nelson <roice3@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2012 10:33:19 -0500
Subject: Re: [MC4D] Re: Super Puzzle Sunday!



--e89a8f2345ad91984e04bcdc24cd
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Hi Ed,

Puzzles are solved in MT when all sticker colors are the same on every
puzzle face. So on the puzzle you mention, a sticker may not necessarily
end up exactly where it began. The stickers of dissected edge pieces may
end up reconnected with different stickers in the end. (However, there may
be parity-like constraints that limit how stickers can go back together - I
haven't analyzed this particular puzzle with respect to that.)

In fact, MT has no internal concept of "pieces", e.g. 2C edges or 3C
corners. It only knows about stickers, and if some stickers always remain
connected to others due to the slicing particulars, MT is blissfully
unaware of this :)

In any case, the puzzles should still be playable without labeling pieces.
A nice extension in the future would be picture puzzles, which would
effectively label the pieces and require dissected edges to go back exactly
as they started.

seeya,
Roice


On Wed, Apr 4, 2012 at 6:40 AM, Eduard wrote:

> Hi Roice,
> In MagicTile some puzzles become completely unplayable, if the depth is
> chosen so that individualised multicolor elements can be separated in
> pieces. In this case it would be necessary to label all these pieces which
> cannot be done in your program easily. When the the puzzle is solved in MT:
> when colors are okay or when all pieces are at home?
> I tried MT ell/sphere/cube/E 1:0:1. Edges can be dissected!
> Ed
>
>

--e89a8f2345ad91984e04bcdc24cd
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Hi Ed,
=A0
Puzzles are solved in MT when all sticker colors are =
the same on every puzzle face. =A0So on the puzzle you mention, a sticker m=
ay not necessarily end up exactly where it began.=A0 The stickers of dissec=
ted edge pieces=A0may end up reconnected with different stickers in the end=
. =A0(However, there may be parity-like constraints that limit how stickers=
can go back together - I haven't analyzed this particular puzzle with =
respect to that.)


In fact, MT has no internal concept of "pieces", e.g. 2C edge=
s or 3C corners. =A0It only knows about stickers, and if some stickers alwa=
ys remain connected to others due to the slicing particulars, MT is blissfu=
lly unaware of this :)

=A0
In any case, the puzzles should still be playable without labeling p=
ieces. =A0A nice extension in the future would be picture puzzles, which wo=
uld effectively label the pieces and require dissected edges to go back exa=
ctly as they started.


seeya,
Roice
=A0

On Wed, Apr 4, 2012 at 6:40=
AM, Eduard <t=3D"_blank">baumann@mcnet.ch> wrote:
s=3D"gmail_quote">

color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid" class=
=3D"gmail_quote">Hi Roice,

In MagicTile some puzzles become completely unplayable, if =A0the depth is =
chosen so that individualised multicolor elements can be separated in piece=
s. In this case it would be necessary to label all these pieces which canno=
t be done in your program easily. When the the puzzle is solved in MT: when=
colors are okay or when all pieces are at home?



I tried MT ell/sphere/cube/E 1:0:1. Edges can be dissected!

Ed




--e89a8f2345ad91984e04bcdc24cd--




From: "Eduard Baumann" <baumann@mcnet.ch>
Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2012 18:31:50 +0200
Subject: Re: [MC4D] Re: Super Puzzle Sunday!



------=_NextPart_000_000A_01CD1291.334FD440
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

In my words 2C edges and 3C corners are "elements" not pieces. Pieces are s=
tickers.

I will play with "dode F 2:0:1" instead of "cube E 1:0:1". The 2C edges sta=
y together and the 1C faces and corners can't be dissected.

Why do you think that Nan has not solved the small "cube E 1:0:1" ?

Ed

----- Original Message -----=20
From: Roice Nelson=20
To: 4D_Cubing@yahoogroups.com=20
Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2012 5:33 PM
Subject: Re: [MC4D] Re: Super Puzzle Sunday!


=20=20=20=20

Hi Ed,
=20=20=20
Puzzles are solved in MT when all sticker colors are the same on every pu=
zzle face. So on the puzzle you mention, a sticker may not necessarily end=
up exactly where it began. The stickers of dissected edge pieces may end =
up reconnected with different stickers in the end. (However, there may be =
parity-like constraints that limit how stickers can go back together - I ha=
ven't analyzed this particular puzzle with respect to that.)

In fact, MT has no internal concept of "pieces", e.g. 2C edges or 3C corn=
ers. It only knows about stickers, and if some stickers always remain conn=
ected to others due to the slicing particulars, MT is blissfully unaware of=
this :)
=20=20=20
In any case, the puzzles should still be playable without labeling pieces=
. A nice extension in the future would be picture puzzles, which would eff=
ectively label the pieces and require dissected edges to go back exactly as=
they started.

seeya,
Roice


On Wed, Apr 4, 2012 at 6:40 AM, Eduard wrote:

Hi Roice,
In MagicTile some puzzles become completely unplayable, if the depth i=
s chosen so that individualised multicolor elements can be separated in pie=
ces. In this case it would be necessary to label all these pieces which can=
not be done in your program easily. When the the puzzle is solved in MT: wh=
en colors are okay or when all pieces are at home?
I tried MT ell/sphere/cube/E 1:0:1. Edges can be dissected!
Ed




=20=20
------=_NextPart_000_000A_01CD1291.334FD440
Content-Type: text/html;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable



>


In my words 2C edges and 3C corners are "e=
lements"=20
not pieces. Pieces are stickers.

 

I will play with "dode F 2:0:1" instead of=
"cube E=20
1:0:1". The 2C edges stay together and the 1C faces and corners can't be=20
dissected.

 

Why do you think that Nan has not solved t=
he small=20
"cube E 1:0:1" ?

 

Ed

 

style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: =
0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
----- Original Message -----

style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black">Fro=
m:
=20
Roice Nelson=
=20

To: ps.com=20
href=3D"mailto:4D_Cubing@yahoogroups.com">4D_Cubing@yahoogroups.com
<=
/DIV>
Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2012 5:=
33=20
PM

Subject: Re: [MC4D] Re: Super Puzz=
le=20
Sunday!


 =20


Hi Ed,
 
Puzzles are solved in MT when all sticker colors=
are=20
the same on every puzzle face.  So on the puzzle you mention, a stic=
ker=20
may not necessarily end up exactly where it began.  The stickers of=
=20
dissected edge pieces may end up reconnected with different stickers=
in=20
the end.  (However, there may be parity-like constraints that limit =
how=20
stickers can go back together - I haven't analyzed this particular puzzle=
with=20
respect to that.)

In fact, MT has no internal concept of "pieces",=
e.g.=20
2C edges or 3C corners.  It only knows about stickers, and if some=20
stickers always remain connected to others due to the slicing particulars=
, MT=20
is blissfully unaware of this :)
 
In any case, the puzzles sh=
ould=20
still be playable without labeling pieces.  A nice extension in the=
=20
future would be picture puzzles, which would effectively label the pieces=
and=20
require dissected edges to go back exactly as they=20
started.

seeya,
Roice

 


On Wed, Apr 4, 2012 at 6:40 AM, Eduard < href=3D"mailto:baumann@mcnet.ch" target=3D_blank>baumann@mcnet.ch>=
=20
wrote:



class=3Dgmail_quote>Hi Roice,
In MagicTile some puzzles become compl=
etely=20
unplayable, if  the depth is chosen so that individualised multico=
lor=20
elements can be separated in pieces. In this case it would be necessary=
to=20
label all these pieces which cannot be done in your program easily. Whe=
n the=20
the puzzle is solved in MT: when colors are okay or when all pieces are=
at=20
home?
I tried MT ell/sphere/cube/E 1:0:1. Edges can be=20
dissected!
Ed





------=_NextPart_000_000A_01CD1291.334FD440--




From: Roice Nelson <roice3@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2012 12:04:13 -0500
Subject: Re: [MC4D] Re: Super Puzzle Sunday!



--e89a8f2348a7b42e5604bcdd69e0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Ah, sorry I hadn't fully followed and switched over to your terminology. I
think everything I wrote still applies ok, as long as "piece" and "sticker"
are interpreted correctly.

I like either of the terms "element" or "piece" to mean "a connected set of
stickers". I personally dislike using the term "piece" to mean "sticker",
since the latter feels much less ambiguous. Things could definitely be
confusing since we were taking "piece" to mean different things! I'm
curious if any of the twistypuzzle members can comment on what the standard
terminology might be? I'd like to use any commonly accepted terms.

As for why Nan hasn't solved the E1:0:1 cube, only he could say, but maybe
he just hasn't decided to try that one yet since there are so many
choices. I think it should be a solvable, and hopefully interesting puzzle.

seeya,
Roice

On Wed, Apr 4, 2012 at 11:31 AM, Eduard Baumann wrote:

> **
>
>
> In my words 2C edges and 3C corners are "elements" not pieces. Pieces are
> stickers.
>
> I will play with "dode F 2:0:1" instead of "cube E 1:0:1". The 2C edges
> stay together and the 1C faces and corners can't be dissected.
>
> Why do you think that Nan has not solved the small "cube E 1:0:1" ?
>
> Ed
>
>

--e89a8f2348a7b42e5604bcdd69e0
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Ah, sorry I hadn't fully followed and switched over to your=A0term=
inology.=A0 I think everything I wrote still applies ok, as long as "p=
iece" and "sticker" are interpreted correctly.=A0
>=A0


I like either of the terms "element" or "piece" to=
mean "a connected set of stickers".=A0 I personally dislike usin=
g the term=A0"piece" to=A0mean "sticker", since the lat=
ter feels much less ambiguous.=A0 Things could definitely be confusing sinc=
e we were taking "piece" to mean different things!=A0 I'm cur=
ious if any of the twistypuzzle members can comment on what the standard te=
rminology might be?=A0 I'd like to use any commonly accepted terms.v>

=A0
As for why Nan hasn't solved the E1:0:1 cube, only h=
e could say, but maybe he just hasn't decided to try that one yet since=
there are so many choices.=A0 I think it should be a solvable, and hopeful=
ly=A0interesting=A0puzzle.


=A0
seeya,
Roice



--e89a8f2348a7b42e5604bcdd69e0--




From: "schuma" <mananself@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2012 19:07:55 -0000
Subject: Re: Super Puzzle Sunday!



I don't think there is "standardized" terminology. After all, terms are fin=
e as long as there's no ambiguity for the readers. I think, the meaning of =
the word "sticker" is clear. The phrases "2C pieces" or "edge pieces" are a=
lso clear, which also clarify the meaning of "pieces" in the context. Somet=
imes I use the single word "piece" for this meaning. I think most people in=
the twistypuzzles forum use it like this.

I haven't solved E1:0:1 cube because I haven't spent much time on MagicTile=
yet. I have solved this puzzle several times on Gelatinbrain (3.3.7). It's=
a famous puzzle called "Little Chop". It's notoriously hard to solve and t=
o physically build.=20

It appears to be simple and innocent but is very hard to solve. Constructin=
g 3-cycles is hard because it's hard to isolate a single piece. Even if a 3=
-cycle algorithm is found, setup is sometimes long and hard. It may be the =
hardest puzzle with <=3D 24 pieces (also 24 stickers in this case).

An interesting fact is that building it physically is hard. When it was fir=
st built, there were hundreds of internal pieces forming several layers, li=
ke an onion. Although it only has 24 pieces seen from outside, it has 209 p=
ieces, 44 screws, 24 washers and 6 springs in total. Since the structure is=
so complicated, people later changed the plan and built it using a big mag=
net ball.=20

Since E1:0:1 is such a legendary puzzle, Ed, I think you should try it. Wit=
h macros you don't have to memorize the 3-cycle algorithms. With F1-F2-F3 y=
ou don't have to memorize setup moves. All these features make it more solv=
able.=20

References:
[1] http://twistypuzzles.com/cgi-bin/puzzle.cgi?pkey=3D1676
[2] http://twistypuzzles.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3D15&t=3D14128

Nan

--- In 4D_Cubing@yahoogroups.com, Roice Nelson wrote:
>
> Ah, sorry I hadn't fully followed and switched over to your terminology. =
I
> think everything I wrote still applies ok, as long as "piece" and "sticke=
r"
> are interpreted correctly.
>=20
> I like either of the terms "element" or "piece" to mean "a connected set =
of
> stickers". I personally dislike using the term "piece" to mean "sticker"=
,
> since the latter feels much less ambiguous. Things could definitely be
> confusing since we were taking "piece" to mean different things! I'm
> curious if any of the twistypuzzle members can comment on what the standa=
rd
> terminology might be? I'd like to use any commonly accepted terms.
>=20
> As for why Nan hasn't solved the E1:0:1 cube, only he could say, but mayb=
e
> he just hasn't decided to try that one yet since there are so many
> choices. I think it should be a solvable, and hopefully interesting puzz=
le.
>=20
> seeya,
> Roice
>=20
> On Wed, Apr 4, 2012 at 11:31 AM, Eduard Baumann wrote:
>=20
> > **
> >
> >
> > In my words 2C edges and 3C corners are "elements" not pieces. Pieces a=
re
> > stickers.
> >
> > I will play with "dode F 2:0:1" instead of "cube E 1:0:1". The 2C edges
> > stay together and the 1C faces and corners can't be dissected.
> >
> > Why do you think that Nan has not solved the small "cube E 1:0:1" ?
> >
> > Ed
> >
> >
>