I have made a trial. Please comment or complete.
I think it's a good start.=20
Actually I have solved all the 3-layer puzzles in Magic Tile except Dodecag=
onal 12-color, which is buggy on my computer. But I solved them when saving=
log was not available. I believe many people have solved the easier ones a=
nd nobody knows who's the first one to solve each puzzle (probably Roice is=
always the first one). What should we do about them? Should we only put th=
e hard puzzles in this list?=20
Nan
--- In 4D_Cubing@yahoogroups.com, "Eduard"
>
> I have made a trial. Please comment or complete.
>
--------------040206000902050802020904
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Hey, great stuff, guys!
I think the new section looks perfect, and I also agree it would be my
preference to skip the more trivial ones for exactly the same reasons
you give. Other opinions, anyone? And if so, would anyone like to
propose a sentence or two with a simple description of some reasonable
place to draw the line?
Here's the link
reference. Everyone please remember that wiki's are the most valuable
when more people edit it. The attitude I would recommend with all wiki's
is that it's better to ask for forgiveness than for permission.
-Melinda
On 3/4/2011 5:08 PM, schuma wrote:
> I think it's a good start.
>
> Actually I have solved all the 3-layer puzzles in Magic Tile except Dodecagonal 12-color, which is buggy on my computer. But I solved them when saving log was not available. I believe many people have solved the easier ones and nobody knows who's the first one to solve each puzzle (probably Roice is always the first one). What should we do about them? Should we only put the hard puzzles in this list?
>
> Nan
>
> --- In 4D_Cubing@yahoogroups.com, "Eduard"
>> I have made a trial. Please comment or complete.
>>
--------------040206000902050802020904
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
http-equiv="Content-Type">
Hey, great stuff, guys!
I think the new section looks perfect, and I also agree it would be
my preference to skip the more trivial ones for exactly the same
reasons you give. Other opinions, anyone? And if so, would anyone
like to propose a sentence or two with a simple description of some
reasonable place to draw the line?
Here's the
link for reference. Everyone please remember that wiki's are
the most valuable when more people edit it. The attitude I would
recommend with all wiki's is that it's better to ask for forgiveness
than for permission.
-Melinda
On 3/4/2011 5:08 PM, schuma wrote:
I think it's a good start.
Actually I have solved all the 3-layer puzzles in Magic Tile except Dodecagonal 12-color, which is buggy on my computer. But I solved them when saving log was not available. I believe many people have solved the easier ones and nobody knows who's the first one to solve each puzzle (probably Roice is always the first one). What should we do about them? Should we only put the hard puzzles in this list?
Nan
--- In 4D_Cubing@yahoogroups.com, "Eduard" <baumann@...> wrote:
I have made a trial. Please comment or complete.
--------------040206000902050802020904--
Nan,
It's enough to put "B.L." (before logs) records in the "date" column and =
treat them as the same date: everybody whith this record is first, nobody i=
s shortest.
I think that we don't need different entries for equivalent puzzles (all =
3 colors, other then digons are equivalent; all 4 colors are equivalent, an=
d all 6 colors that exist now are equivalent too). It gives only small numb=
er of "easy puzzles": 3,4,6 colors, 3 layers; 3 colors, 5 layers. But 6 col=
ors, 3 layers is a classic Rubik's cube 3^3, so it's not so easy.=20
I don't know, how long will be list for easy puzzles. May be not very lon=
g.
I've solved only 3-layers (3,4,6,24 colors) and 3 colors, 5 layers before=
logs.
=20=20
Actually, there are much more puzzles in Magic Tile: there is a parameter=
"Expansion Factor" in Options/Edit Settings menu (thanks to Melinda for th=
e hint :) ), and by changing it you can get infinite number of very hard pu=
zzles :)
Andrey
--- In 4D_Cubing@yahoogroups.com, "schuma"
>
> I think it's a good start.=20
>=20
> Actually I have solved all the 3-layer puzzles in Magic Tile except Dodec=
agonal 12-color, which is buggy on my computer. But I solved them when savi=
ng log was not available. I believe many people have solved the easier ones=
and nobody knows who's the first one to solve each puzzle (probably Roice =
is always the first one). What should we do about them? Should we only put =
the hard puzzles in this list?=20
>=20
> Nan
>=20
> --- In 4D_Cubing@yahoogroups.com, "Eduard"
> >
> > I have made a trial. Please comment or complete.
> >
>
Solved :)
--0015175cdffcd7b687049db4a1d5
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thanks Eduard :)
@schuma
It may sound ludicrous, but I have only solved one of the MT hexagonal
puzzles, and only once. I spent more time creating the KQ checkerboards
than anything else. I must admit to liking creating puzzles much more than
solving them!
My apologies for troubles with the dodecagonal puzzle. If you are able to
describe the symptoms to me offline, I'll try to get things corrected.
I wish I would have done loading/saving from the beginning, as it is sad to
have lost the solve information. I like to err on the side of trusting, so
still encourage people to record their achievements which don't have log
files. I think the "honor bound" wording in the wiki suffices. Btw, I
think Nelson Garcia may have the claim to fame of completing the first KQ
solution
I warned Andrey of this already, but if anyone makes deep-cut puzzles using
the "slicing circles expansion factor" experimental setting, loading/saving
will not (typically) work correctly. If there is a clamoring to fix this I
will, but otherwise I'm planning to leave it for the next version, where I
want to better support the feature.
@schuma and melinda
I agree on skipping trivial puzzles too. If there was a web page with
everyone who has solved the Rubik's Cube, what a page it would be!! It's
hard to know where to draw the line, but I do like the idea of being more
inclusive to start. If the list became too long on some puzzles, we could
always address that later.
Cheers,
Roice
On Fri, Mar 4, 2011 at 7:56 PM, Melinda Green
te:
>
>
> Hey, great stuff, guys!
>
> I think the new section looks perfect, and I also agree it would be my
> preference to skip the more trivial ones for exactly the same reasons you
> give. Other opinions, anyone? And if so, would anyone like to propose a
> sentence or two with a simple description of some reasonable place to dra=
w
> the line?
>
> Here's the link
> reference. Everyone please remember that wiki's are the most valuable whe=
n
> more people edit it. The attitude I would recommend with all wiki's is th=
at
> it's better to ask for forgiveness than for permission.
>
> -Melinda
>
>
> On 3/4/2011 5:08 PM, schuma wrote:
>
> I think it's a good start.
>
> Actually I have solved all the 3-layer puzzles in Magic Tile except Dodec=
agonal 12-color, which is buggy on my computer. But I solved them when savi=
ng log was not available. I believe many people have solved the easier ones=
and nobody knows who's the first one to solve each puzzle (probably Roice =
is always the first one). What should we do about them? Should we only put =
the hard puzzles in this list?
>
> Nan
>
> --- In 4D_Cubing@yahoogroups.com, "Eduard"
ote:
>
> I have made a trial. Please comment or complete.
>
>
>
>
>=20
--0015175cdffcd7b687049db4a1d5
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thanks Eduard :)
s, but I have only solved one of the MT hexagonal puzzles, and only once. =
=A0I spent more time creating the KQ checkerboards than anything else. =A0I=
must admit to liking creating puzzles much more than solving them!
=A0If you are able to describe the symptoms to me offline, I'll try to =
get things corrected.
ding/saving from the beginning, as it is sad to have lost the solve informa=
tion. =A0I like to err on the side of trusting, so still encourage people t=
o record their achievements which don't have log files. =A0I think the =
"honor bound" wording in the wiki suffices. =A0Btw,=A0I think Nel=
son Garcia may have the claim to fame of completing .groups.yahoo.com/group/4D_Cubing/message/835">the first KQ solution.div>
ep-cut puzzles using the "slicing circles expansion factor" exper=
imental setting, loading/saving will not (typically) work correctly. =A0If =
there is a clamoring to fix this I will, but otherwise I'm planning to =
leave it for the next version, where I want to better support the feature.<=
/div>
al puzzles too. =A0If there was a web page with everyone who has solved the=
Rubik's Cube, what a page it would be!! =A0It's hard to know where=
to draw the line, but I do like the idea of being more inclusive to start.=
=A0If the list became too long on some puzzles, we could always address th=
at later.
div>
inda Green <">melinda@superliminal.com> wrote:x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">
=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20
=20=20
=20=20=20=20
=20=20
Hey, great stuff, guys!
I think the new section looks perfect, and I also agree it would be
my preference to skip the more trivial ones for exactly the same
reasons you give. Other opinions, anyone? And if so, would anyone
like to propose a sentence or two with a simple description of some
reasonable place to draw the line?
Here's et=3D"_blank">the
link for reference. Everyone please remember that wiki's are
the most valuable when more people edit it. The attitude I would
recommend with all wiki's is that it's better to ask for forgiv=
eness
than for permission.
-Melinda
On 3/4/2011 5:08 PM, schuma wrote:
I think it's a good start.=20
Actually I have solved all the 3-layer puzzles in Magic Tile except Dodecag=
onal 12-color, which is buggy on my computer. But I solved them when saving=
log was not available. I believe many people have solved the easier ones a=
nd nobody knows who's the first one to solve each puzzle (probably Roic=
e is always the first one). What should we do about them? Should we only pu=
t the hard puzzles in this list?=20
Nan
--- In 4D_Cu=
bing@yahoogroups.com, "Eduard" target=3D"_blank"><baumann@...> wrote:
I have made a trial. Please comment or complete.
=20=20
=20=20=20=20
=20=20=20=20
--0015175cdffcd7b687049db4a1d5--
From: Melinda Green <melinda@superliminal.com>
Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2011 21:41:18 -0800
Subject: Re: [MC4D] Re: MagicTile Extension in Superliminal/Wiki
--------------020903030904050409020000
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
I like Andrey's and Roice's opinions on missing log files. "B.L." is a
very clever notation. It also seems like a term with applications that
extend beyond our needs.
Andrey talks about very hard puzzles, so I'm going to share a new one
that I think is also very hard. You can find it here
Be sure to notice the "Help" button for instructions and hints. It
doesn't support log files but it *does* display history that you can
copy. It does support macros however. I've never solved it but let's see
who here can validly claim to have solved it first. Ready.., set...,
GO! :-)
-Melinda
On 3/4/2011 8:14 PM, Andrey wrote:
> Nan,
> It's enough to put "B.L." (before logs) records in the "date" column and treat them as the same date: everybody whith this record is first, nobody is shortest.
> I think that we don't need different entries for equivalent puzzles (all 3 colors, other then digons are equivalent; all 4 colors are equivalent, and all 6 colors that exist now are equivalent too). It gives only small number of "easy puzzles": 3,4,6 colors, 3 layers; 3 colors, 5 layers. But 6 colors, 3 layers is a classic Rubik's cube 3^3, so it's not so easy.
> I don't know, how long will be list for easy puzzles. May be not very long.
> I've solved only 3-layers (3,4,6,24 colors) and 3 colors, 5 layers before logs.
>
> Actually, there are much more puzzles in Magic Tile: there is a parameter "Expansion Factor" in Options/Edit Settings menu (thanks to Melinda for the hint :) ), and by changing it you can get infinite number of very hard puzzles :)
>
> Andrey
>
> --- In 4D_Cubing@yahoogroups.com, "schuma"
>> I think it's a good start.
>>
>> Actually I have solved all the 3-layer puzzles in Magic Tile except Dodecagonal 12-color, which is buggy on my computer. But I solved them when saving log was not available. I believe many people have solved the easier ones and nobody knows who's the first one to solve each puzzle (probably Roice is always the first one). What should we do about them? Should we only put the hard puzzles in this list?
>>
>> Nan
>>
>> --- In 4D_Cubing@yahoogroups.com, "Eduard"
>>> I have made a trial. Please comment or complete.
--------------020903030904050409020000
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
http-equiv="Content-Type">
I like Andrey's and Roice's opinions on missing log files. "B.L." is
a very clever notation. It also seems like a term with applications
that extend beyond our needs.
Andrey talks about very hard puzzles, so I'm going to share a new
one that I think is also very hard. You can find it
Be sure to notice the "Help" button for instructions and hints. It
doesn't support log files but it *does* display history that you can
copy. It does support macros however. I've never solved it but let's
see who here can validly claim to have solved it first. Ready..,
set..., GO! :-)
-Melinda
On 3/4/2011 8:14 PM, Andrey wrote:
Nan,
It's enough to put "B.L." (before logs) records in the "date" column and treat them as the same date: everybody whith this record is first, nobody is shortest.
I think that we don't need different entries for equivalent puzzles (all 3 colors, other then digons are equivalent; all 4 colors are equivalent, and all 6 colors that exist now are equivalent too). It gives only small number of "easy puzzles": 3,4,6 colors, 3 layers; 3 colors, 5 layers. But 6 colors, 3 layers is a classic Rubik's cube 3^3, so it's not so easy.
I don't know, how long will be list for easy puzzles. May be not very long.
I've solved only 3-layers (3,4,6,24 colors) and 3 colors, 5 layers before logs.
Actually, there are much more puzzles in Magic Tile: there is a parameter "Expansion Factor" in Options/Edit Settings menu (thanks to Melinda for the hint :) ), and by changing it you can get infinite number of very hard puzzles :)
Andrey
--- In 4D_Cubing@yahoogroups.com, "schuma" <mananself@...> wrote:
I think it's a good start.
Actually I have solved all the 3-layer puzzles in Magic Tile except Dodecagonal 12-color, which is buggy on my computer. But I solved them when saving log was not available. I believe many people have solved the easier ones and nobody knows who's the first one to solve each puzzle (probably Roice is always the first one). What should we do about them? Should we only put the hard puzzles in this list?
Nan
--- In 4D_Cubing@yahoogroups.com, "Eduard" <baumann@> wrote:
I have made a trial. Please comment or complete.
--------------020903030904050409020000--
From: "Andrey" <andreyastrelin@yahoo.com>
Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2011 07:45:38 -0000
Subject: [MC4D] Re: MagicTile Extension in Superliminal/Wiki
Solved :)
Took about two hours.
Andrey
--- In 4D_Cubing@yahoogroups.com, Melinda Green
>
> I like Andrey's and Roice's opinions on missing log files. "B.L." is a=20
> very clever notation. It also seems like a term with applications that=20
> extend beyond our needs.
>=20
> Andrey talks about very hard puzzles, so I'm going to share a new one=20
> that I think is also very hard. You can find it here=20
>
.=20
> Be sure to notice the "Help" button for instructions and hints. It=20
> doesn't support log files but it *does* display history that you can=20
> copy. It does support macros however. I've never solved it but let's see=
=20
> who here can validly claim to have solved it first. Ready.., set...,=20
> GO! :-)
>=20
> -Melinda
>=20
> On 3/4/2011 8:14 PM, Andrey wrote:
> > Nan,
> > It's enough to put "B.L." (before logs) records in the "date" column=
and treat them as the same date: everybody whith this record is first, nob=
ody is shortest.
> > I think that we don't need different entries for equivalent puzzles =
(all 3 colors, other then digons are equivalent; all 4 colors are equivalen=
t, and all 6 colors that exist now are equivalent too). It gives only small=
number of "easy puzzles": 3,4,6 colors, 3 layers; 3 colors, 5 layers. But =
6 colors, 3 layers is a classic Rubik's cube 3^3, so it's not so easy.
> > I don't know, how long will be list for easy puzzles. May be not ver=
y long.
> > I've solved only 3-layers (3,4,6,24 colors) and 3 colors, 5 layers b=
efore logs.
> >
> > Actually, there are much more puzzles in Magic Tile: there is a para=
meter "Expansion Factor" in Options/Edit Settings menu (thanks to Melinda f=
or the hint :) ), and by changing it you can get infinite number of very ha=
rd puzzles :)
> >
> > Andrey
> >
> > --- In 4D_Cubing@yahoogroups.com, "schuma"
> >> I think it's a good start.
> >>
> >> Actually I have solved all the 3-layer puzzles in Magic Tile except Do=
decagonal 12-color, which is buggy on my computer. But I solved them when s=
aving log was not available. I believe many people have solved the easier o=
nes and nobody knows who's the first one to solve each puzzle (probably Roi=
ce is always the first one). What should we do about them? Should we only p=
ut the hard puzzles in this list?
> >>
> >> Nan
> >>
> >> --- In 4D_Cubing@yahoogroups.com, "Eduard"
> >>> I have made a trial. Please comment or complete.
>
From: "schuma" <mananself@gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2011 08:13:01 -0000
Subject: [MC4D] Re: MagicTile Extension in Superliminal/Wiki
Audrey, you are truly amazing. Have you solved the related puzzle: M12?
http://www.scientificamerican.com/media/inline/2008-07/puzzles/m12.html
I read the article about these two puzzles on Scientific American in 2008. =
At that time I didn't even know how to solve a 2x2x2. Today I still have no=
idea and no intuition about how to solve them. They are too weird to me. B=
y the way, Oskar van Deventer has made a physical M12 puzzle:=20
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DH8ZcYvU0sLY
Nan
--- In 4D_Cubing@yahoogroups.com, "Andrey"
>
> Solved :)
> Took about two hours.
>=20
> Andrey
>=20
> --- In 4D_Cubing@yahoogroups.com, Melinda Green
> >
> > I like Andrey's and Roice's opinions on missing log files. "B.L." is a=
=20
> > very clever notation. It also seems like a term with applications that=
=20
> > extend beyond our needs.
> >=20
> > Andrey talks about very hard puzzles, so I'm going to share a new one=20
> > that I think is also very hard. You can find it here=20
> >
> > Be sure to notice the "Help" button for instructions and hints. It=20
> > doesn't support log files but it *does* display history that you can=20
> > copy. It does support macros however. I've never solved it but let's se=
e=20
> > who here can validly claim to have solved it first. Ready.., set...,=20
> > GO! :-)
> >=20
> > -Melinda
> >=20
From: Melinda Green <melinda@superliminal.com>
Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2011 00:51:10 -0800
Subject: Re: [MC4D] Re: MagicTile Extension in Superliminal/Wiki
Wow.
Just, wow.
OK, please do tell us if you've seen these before and how you solved it?
-Melinda
On 3/4/2011 11:45 PM, Andrey wrote:
> Solved :)
> Took about two hours.
>
> Andrey
>
> --- In 4D_Cubing@yahoogroups.com, Melinda Green
>> I like Andrey's and Roice's opinions on missing log files. "B.L." is a
>> very clever notation. It also seems like a term with applications that
>> extend beyond our needs.
>>
>> Andrey talks about very hard puzzles, so I'm going to share a new one
>> that I think is also very hard. You can find it here
>>
>> Be sure to notice the "Help" button for instructions and hints. It
>> doesn't support log files but it *does* display history that you can
>> copy. It does support macros however. I've never solved it but let's see
>> who here can validly claim to have solved it first. Ready.., set...,
>> GO! :-)
>>
>> -Melinda
From: "Andrey" <andreyastrelin@yahoo.com>
Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2011 12:27:54 -0000
Subject: [MC4D] Re: MagicTile Extension in Superliminal/Wiki
I haven't seen neither this puzzle nor M12 before.
At first I found that operation X1=3DSR9SL9 keeps all balls from 6 to 11 in=
place, and performs permutation of order 3. Then my idea was to find for a=
ny given ball operation that keep balls 6,7,8,9, and sets the given ball to=
place 5. I took operations X1, X2=3DX1*X1, Aij=3DR*Xi*L*Xj (i,j=3D1,2) and=
Bij=3DR2*Xi*L2*Xj. It was easy to draw tansformation graph for them and fi=
nd a way from any point to "5".=20
By this operations I put five balls (say, 1,2,3,4,5) in raw. Unfortunatel=
y ather balls were un disorder (one of 47 wrong states), so I set 0 before =
1 (and lost ball 5), then 23 before 0 and so on. After 10 or 15 such operat=
ions puzzle appeared in the solved state. I don't know why.
What is interesting - to fing group that is generated by these permutatio=
ns. It's easy, that spots are numbers from Z/23Z with "infinity" number, so=
that rotation of circle works like +1 or -1. Swapping is some fraction lik=
e P(x)/x (or P(x)/Q(x), where Q(0)=3D0), and I'm trying to find it. Their h=
int says that it may be about some object in 5 dimensions, but I don't see =
it now.
Andrey
--- In 4D_Cubing@yahoogroups.com, Melinda Green
>
> Wow.
> Just, wow.
> OK, please do tell us if you've seen these before and how you solved it?
>=20
> -Melinda
>=20
> On 3/4/2011 11:45 PM, Andrey wrote:
> > Solved :)
> > Took about two hours.
> >
> > Andrey
> >
> > --- In 4D_Cubing@yahoogroups.com, Melinda Green
> >> I like Andrey's and Roice's opinions on missing log files. "B.L." is a
> >> very clever notation. It also seems like a term with applications that
> >> extend beyond our needs.
> >>
> >> Andrey talks about very hard puzzles, so I'm going to share a new one
> >> that I think is also very hard. You can find it here
> >>
> >> Be sure to notice the "Help" button for instructions and hints. It
> >> doesn't support log files but it *does* display history that you can
> >> copy. It does support macros however. I've never solved it but let's s=
ee
> >> who here can validly claim to have solved it first. Ready.., set...,
> >> GO! :-)
> >>
> >> -Melinda
>
From: "Eduard Baumann" <baumann@mcnet.ch>
Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2011 14:03:01 +0100
Subject: Re: [MC4D] Re: MagicTile Extension in Superliminal/Wiki
------=_NextPart_000_0087_01CBDB3E.0A100B30
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I was first for m24 in 2008 ! See: http://private.mcnet.ch/baumann/m24%20aw=
%20table.txt
;-) Ed
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Andrey=20
To: 4D_Cubing@yahoogroups.com=20
Sent: Saturday, March 05, 2011 8:45 AM
Subject: [MC4D] Re: MagicTile Extension in Superliminal/Wiki
=20=20=20=20
Solved :)
Took about two hours.
Andrey
--- In 4D_Cubing@yahoogroups.com, Melinda Green
>
> I like Andrey's and Roice's opinions on missing log files. "B.L." is a=
=20
> very clever notation. It also seems like a term with applications that=
=20
> extend beyond our needs.
>=20
> Andrey talks about very hard puzzles, so I'm going to share a new one=20
> that I think is also very hard. You can find it here=20
>
> Be sure to notice the "Help" button for instructions and hints. It=20
> doesn't support log files but it *does* display history that you can=20
> copy. It does support macros however. I've never solved it but let's se=
e=20
> who here can validly claim to have solved it first. Ready.., set...,=20
> GO! :-)
>=20
> -Melinda
>=20
> On 3/4/2011 8:14 PM, Andrey wrote:
> > Nan,
> > It's enough to put "B.L." (before logs) records in the "date" column =
and treat them as the same date: everybody whith this record is first, nobo=
dy is shortest.
> > I think that we don't need different entries for equivalent puzzles (=
all 3 colors, other then digons are equivalent; all 4 colors are equivalent=
, and all 6 colors that exist now are equivalent too). It gives only small =
number of "easy puzzles": 3,4,6 colors, 3 layers; 3 colors, 5 layers. But 6=
colors, 3 layers is a classic Rubik's cube 3^3, so it's not so easy.
> > I don't know, how long will be list for easy puzzles. May be not very=
long.
> > I've solved only 3-layers (3,4,6,24 colors) and 3 colors, 5 layers be=
fore logs.
> >
> > Actually, there are much more puzzles in Magic Tile: there is a param=
eter "Expansion Factor" in Options/Edit Settings menu (thanks to Melinda fo=
r the hint :) ), and by changing it you can get infinite number of very har=
d puzzles :)
> >
> > Andrey
> >
> > --- In 4D_Cubing@yahoogroups.com, "schuma"
> >> I think it's a good start.
> >>
> >> Actually I have solved all the 3-layer puzzles in Magic Tile except =
Dodecagonal 12-color, which is buggy on my computer. But I solved them when=
saving log was not available. I believe many people have solved the easier=
ones and nobody knows who's the first one to solve each puzzle (probably R=
oice is always the first one). What should we do about them? Should we only=
put the hard puzzles in this list?
> >>
> >> Nan
> >>
> >> --- In 4D_Cubing@yahoogroups.com, "Eduard"
> >>> I have made a trial. Please comment or complete.
>
=20=20
------=_NextPart_000_0087_01CBDB3E.0A100B30
Content-Type: text/html;
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>
e.mcnet.ch/baumann/m24%20aw%20table.txt
0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
m:=20
href=3D"mailto:andreyastrelin@yahoo.com">Andrey
href=3D"mailto:4D_Cubing@yahoogroups.com">4D_Cubing@yahoogroups.com <=
/DIV>
5=20
AM
nsion=20
in Superliminal/Wiki
Took about two hours.
Andrey
--- In
Melinda=20
Green <melinda@...> wrote:
>
> I like Andrey's and Roic=
e's=20
opinions on missing log files. "B.L." is a
> very clever notation.=
It=20
also seems like a term with applications that
> extend beyond our=
=20
needs.
>
> Andrey talks about very hard puzzles, so I'm goin=
g to=20
share a new one
> that I think is also very hard. You can find it =
here=20
> <
4.html">http://www.scientificamerican.com/media/inline/2008-07/puzzles/m24.=
html>.=20
> Be sure to notice the "Help" button for instructions and hints. =
It=20
> doesn't support log files but it *does* display history that you=
can=20
> copy. It does support macros however. I've never solved it but l=
et's=20
see
> who here can validly claim to have solved it first. Ready..,=
=20
set...,
> GO! :-)
>
> -Melinda
>
> On=20
3/4/2011 8:14 PM, Andrey wrote:
> > Nan,
> > It's enoug=
h to=20
put "B.L." (before logs) records in the "date" column and treat them as t=
he=20
same date: everybody whith this record is first, nobody is shortest.
&=
gt;=20
> I think that we don't need different entries for equivalent puzzles =
(all=20
3 colors, other then digons are equivalent; all 4 colors are equivalent, =
and=20
all 6 colors that exist now are equivalent too). It gives only small numb=
er of=20
"easy puzzles": 3,4,6 colors, 3 layers; 3 colors, 5 layers. But 6 colors,=
3=20
layers is a classic Rubik's cube 3^3, so it's not so easy.
> > I=
=20
don't know, how long will be list for easy puzzles. May be not very=20
long.
> > I've solved only 3-layers (3,4,6,24 colors) and 3 colo=
rs, 5=20
layers before logs.
> >
> > Actually, there are much mo=
re=20
puzzles in Magic Tile: there is a parameter "Expansion Factor" in Options=
/Edit=20
Settings menu (thanks to Melinda for the hint :) ), and by changing it yo=
u can=20
get infinite number of very hard puzzles :)
> >
> >=20
Andrey
> >
> > --- In
,=20
"schuma"<mananself@> wrote:
> >> I think it's a good=20
start.
> >>
> >> Actually I have solved all the=20
3-layer puzzles in Magic Tile except Dodecagonal 12-color, which is buggy=
on=20
my computer. But I solved them when saving log was not available. I belie=
ve=20
many people have solved the easier ones and nobody knows who's the first =
one=20
to solve each puzzle (probably Roice is always the first one). What shoul=
d we=20
do about them? Should we only put the hard puzzles in this list?
>=
=20
>>
> >> Nan
> >>
> >> --- In
href=3D"mailto:4D_Cubing%40yahoogroups.com">4D_Cubing@yahoogroups.com=
,=20
"Eduard"<baumann@> wrote:
> >>> I have made a trial.=
=20
Please comment or complete.
>
------=_NextPart_000_0087_01CBDB3E.0A100B30--
From: "Eduard" <baumann@mcnet.ch>
Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2011 13:20:01 -0000
Subject: [MC4D] Re: MagicTile Extension in Superliminal/Wiki
See also: http://skepticsplay.blogspot.com/2008/09/m24-puzzle-solved.html
--- In 4D_Cubing@yahoogroups.com, "Eduard Baumann"
>
> I was first for m24 in 2008 ! See: http://private.mcnet.ch/baumann/m24%20=
aw%20table.txt
> ;-) Ed
>=20
> ----- Original Message -----=20
> From: Andrey=20
> To: 4D_Cubing@yahoogroups.com=20
> Sent: Saturday, March 05, 2011 8:45 AM
> Subject: [MC4D] Re: MagicTile Extension in Superliminal/Wiki
>=20
>=20
>=20=20=20=20=20
> Solved :)
> Took about two hours.
>=20
> Andrey
>=20
> --- In 4D_Cubing@yahoogroups.com, Melinda Green
> >
> > I like Andrey's and Roice's opinions on missing log files. "B.L." is =
a=20
> > very clever notation. It also seems like a term with applications tha=
t=20
> > extend beyond our needs.
> >=20
> > Andrey talks about very hard puzzles, so I'm going to share a new one=
=20
> > that I think is also very hard. You can find it here=20
> >
> > Be sure to notice the "Help" button for instructions and hints. It=20
> > doesn't support log files but it *does* display history that you can=
=20
> > copy. It does support macros however. I've never solved it but let's =
see=20
> > who here can validly claim to have solved it first. Ready.., set...,=
=20
> > GO! :-)
> >=20
> > -Melinda
> >=20
> > On 3/4/2011 8:14 PM, Andrey wrote:
> > > Nan,
> > > It's enough to put "B.L." (before logs) records in the "date" colum=
n and treat them as the same date: everybody whith this record is first, no=
body is shortest.
> > > I think that we don't need different entries for equivalent puzzles=
(all 3 colors, other then digons are equivalent; all 4 colors are equivale=
nt, and all 6 colors that exist now are equivalent too). It gives only smal=
l number of "easy puzzles": 3,4,6 colors, 3 layers; 3 colors, 5 layers. But=
6 colors, 3 layers is a classic Rubik's cube 3^3, so it's not so easy.
> > > I don't know, how long will be list for easy puzzles. May be not ve=
ry long.
> > > I've solved only 3-layers (3,4,6,24 colors) and 3 colors, 5 layers =
before logs.
> > >
> > > Actually, there are much more puzzles in Magic Tile: there is a par=
ameter "Expansion Factor" in Options/Edit Settings menu (thanks to Melinda =
for the hint :) ), and by changing it you can get infinite number of very h=
ard puzzles :)
> > >
> > > Andrey
> > >
> > > --- In 4D_Cubing@yahoogroups.com, "schuma"
> > >> I think it's a good start.
> > >>
> > >> Actually I have solved all the 3-layer puzzles in Magic Tile excep=
t Dodecagonal 12-color, which is buggy on my computer. But I solved them wh=
en saving log was not available. I believe many people have solved the easi=
er ones and nobody knows who's the first one to solve each puzzle (probably=
Roice is always the first one). What should we do about them? Should we on=
ly put the hard puzzles in this list?
> > >>
> > >> Nan
> > >>
> > >> --- In 4D_Cubing@yahoogroups.com, "Eduard"
> > >>> I have made a trial. Please comment or complete.
> >
>
From: Melinda Green <melinda@superliminal.com>
Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2011 12:52:10 -0800
Subject: Re: [MC4D] Re: MagicTile Extension in Superliminal/Wiki
Wow, I'm constantly amazed by you guys. These simple sporadic group
puzzles were supposed to be a whole new kind of hard but you guys seem
to penetrate all permutation puzzles with ease. Do you know of any
fundamentally different puzzles that you have no idea how to solve?
Maybe we shouldn't worry about finding god's algorithms for known
puzzles, and start looking for god's puzzle which is a puzzle so hard
that even god can't solve it.
-Melinda
On 3/5/2011 5:20 AM, Eduard wrote:
> See also: http://skepticsplay.blogspot.com/2008/09/m24-puzzle-solved.html
>
> --- In 4D_Cubing@yahoogroups.com, "Eduard Baumann"
>> I was first for m24 in 2008 ! See: http://private.mcnet.ch/baumann/m24%20aw%20table.txt
>> ;-) Ed
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Andrey
>> To: 4D_Cubing@yahoogroups.com
>> Sent: Saturday, March 05, 2011 8:45 AM
>> Subject: [MC4D] Re: MagicTile Extension in Superliminal/Wiki
>>
>>
>>
>> Solved :)
>> Took about two hours.
>>
>> Andrey
>>
>> --- In 4D_Cubing@yahoogroups.com, Melinda Green
>> >
>> > I like Andrey's and Roice's opinions on missing log files. "B.L." is a
>> > very clever notation. It also seems like a term with applications that
>> > extend beyond our needs.
>> >
>> > Andrey talks about very hard puzzles, so I'm going to share a new one
>> > that I think is also very hard. You can find it here
>> >
>> > Be sure to notice the "Help" button for instructions and hints. It
>> > doesn't support log files but it *does* display history that you can
>> > copy. It does support macros however. I've never solved it but let's see
>> > who here can validly claim to have solved it first. Ready.., set...,
>> > GO! :-)
>> >
>> > -Melinda
>> >
>> > On 3/4/2011 8:14 PM, Andrey wrote:
>> > > Nan,
>> > > It's enough to put "B.L." (before logs) records in the "date" column and treat them as the same date: everybody whith this record is first, nobody is shortest.
>> > > I think that we don't need different entries for equivalent puzzles (all 3 colors, other then digons are equivalent; all 4 colors are equivalent, and all 6 colors that exist now are equivalent too). It gives only small number of "easy puzzles": 3,4,6 colors, 3 layers; 3 colors, 5 layers. But 6 colors, 3 layers is a classic Rubik's cube 3^3, so it's not so easy.
>> > > I don't know, how long will be list for easy puzzles. May be not very long.
>> > > I've solved only 3-layers (3,4,6,24 colors) and 3 colors, 5 layers before logs.
>> > >
>> > > Actually, there are much more puzzles in Magic Tile: there is a parameter "Expansion Factor" in Options/Edit Settings menu (thanks to Melinda for the hint :) ), and by changing it you can get infinite number of very hard puzzles :)
>> > >
>> > > Andrey
>> > >
>> > > --- In 4D_Cubing@yahoogroups.com, "schuma"
>> > >> I think it's a good start.
>> > >>
>> > >> Actually I have solved all the 3-layer puzzles in Magic Tile except Dodecagonal 12-color, which is buggy on my computer. But I solved them when saving log was not available. I believe many people have solved the easier ones and nobody knows who's the first one to solve each puzzle (probably Roice is always the first one). What should we do about them? Should we only put the hard puzzles in this list?
>> > >>
>> > >> Nan
>> > >>
>> > >> --- In 4D_Cubing@yahoogroups.com, "Eduard"
>> > >>> I have made a trial. Please comment or complete.
>> >
>>
From: Roice Nelson <roice3@gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2011 18:58:07 -0600
Subject: Re: [MC4D] Re: MagicTile Extension in Superliminal/Wiki
--0016e6db2c8f4cfec3049dc5df11
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
On Sat, Mar 5, 2011 at 6:27 AM, Andrey wrote:
> What is interesting - to fing group that is generated by these
> permutations. It's easy, that spots are numbers from Z/23Z with "infinity"
> number, so that rotation of circle works like +1 or -1. Swapping is some
> fraction like P(x)/x (or P(x)/Q(x), where Q(0)=0), and I'm trying to find
> it. Their hint says that it may be about some object in 5 dimensions, but I
> don't see it now.
I didn't fully follow this, but the puzzle permutations are based on
the Mathieu
group
the Scientific American article about this puzzle). Is that what you were
trying to uncover? Or maybe you are trying to find a polytope
representation of the group structure? It was surprising to learn just now
that M24 can be constructed starting from the symmetries of the Klein
Quartic, then augmenting by one additional permutation, as described
here
.
Roice
--0016e6db2c8f4cfec3049dc5df11
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
te:left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">=A0What is interesting - to fing gro=
up that is generated by these permutations. It's easy, that spots are n=
umbers from Z/23Z with "infinity" number, so that rotation of cir=
cle works like +1 or -1. Swapping is some fraction like P(x)/x (or P(x)/Q(x=
), where Q(0)=3D0), and I'm trying to find it. Their hint says that it =
may be about some object in 5 dimensions, but I don't see it now.kquote>
ions are based on the _M24">Mathieu group M24 (as described in the Scientific American articl=
e about this puzzle). =A0Is that what you were trying to uncover? =A0Or may=
be you are trying to find a polytope representation of the group structure?=
=A0It was surprising to learn just now that=A0M24=A0can be constructed sta=
rting from the symmetries of the=A0Klein Quartic, then augmenting by one ad=
ditional permutation, as described Mathieu_group_M24#Polyhedral_symmetries">here.
--0016e6db2c8f4cfec3049dc5df11--
From: "Andrey" <andreyastrelin@yahoo.com>
Date: Sun, 06 Mar 2011 19:58:30 -0000
Subject: [MC4D] Re: MagicTile Extension in Superliminal/Wiki
There is also "dotto" puzzle in that article: it is a puzzle in 24-dimensio=
nal space! Is anybody on this planet ever tried to solve it? :)
--- In 4D_Cubing@yahoogroups.com, Melinda Green
>
> Wow, I'm constantly amazed by you guys. These simple sporadic group=20
> puzzles were supposed to be a whole new kind of hard but you guys seem=20
> to penetrate all permutation puzzles with ease. Do you know of any=20
> fundamentally different puzzles that you have no idea how to solve?=20
> Maybe we shouldn't worry about finding god's algorithms for known=20
> puzzles, and start looking for god's puzzle which is a puzzle so hard=20
> that even god can't solve it.
>=20
> -Melinda
>=20
> On 3/5/2011 5:20 AM, Eduard wrote:
> > See also: http://skepticsplay.blogspot.com/2008/09/m24-puzzle-solved.ht=
ml
> >
> > --- In 4D_Cubing@yahoogroups.com, "Eduard Baumann"
> >> I was first for m24 in 2008 ! See: http://private.mcnet.ch/baumann/m24=
%20aw%20table.txt
> >> ;-) Ed
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: Andrey
> >> To: 4D_Cubing@yahoogroups.com
> >> Sent: Saturday, March 05, 2011 8:45 AM
> >> Subject: [MC4D] Re: MagicTile Extension in Superliminal/Wiki
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Solved :)
> >> Took about two hours.
> >>
> >> Andrey
> >>
> >> --- In 4D_Cubing@yahoogroups.com, Melinda Green
> >> >
> >> > I like Andrey's and Roice's opinions on missing log files. "B.L.=
" is a
> >> > very clever notation. It also seems like a term with application=
s that
> >> > extend beyond our needs.
> >> >
> >> > Andrey talks about very hard puzzles, so I'm going to share a ne=
w one
> >> > that I think is also very hard. You can find it here
> >> >
> >> > Be sure to notice the "Help" button for instructions and hints. =
It
> >> > doesn't support log files but it *does* display history that you=
can
> >> > copy. It does support macros however. I've never solved it but l=
et's see
> >> > who here can validly claim to have solved it first. Ready.., set=
...,
> >> > GO! :-)
> >> >
> >> > -Melinda
> >> >
> >> > On 3/4/2011 8:14 PM, Andrey wrote:
> >> > > Nan,
> >> > > It's enough to put "B.L." (before logs) records in the "date"=
column and treat them as the same date: everybody whith this record is fir=
st, nobody is shortest.
> >> > > I think that we don't need different entries for equivalent p=
uzzles (all 3 colors, other then digons are equivalent; all 4 colors are eq=
uivalent, and all 6 colors that exist now are equivalent too). It gives onl=
y small number of "easy puzzles": 3,4,6 colors, 3 layers; 3 colors, 5 layer=
s. But 6 colors, 3 layers is a classic Rubik's cube 3^3, so it's not so eas=
y.
> >> > > I don't know, how long will be list for easy puzzles. May be =
not very long.
> >> > > I've solved only 3-layers (3,4,6,24 colors) and 3 colors, 5 l=
ayers before logs.
> >> > >
> >> > > Actually, there are much more puzzles in Magic Tile: there is=
a parameter "Expansion Factor" in Options/Edit Settings menu (thanks to Me=
linda for the hint :) ), and by changing it you can get infinite number of =
very hard puzzles :)
> >> > >
> >> > > Andrey
> >> > >
> >> > > --- In 4D_Cubing@yahoogroups.com, "schuma"
:
> >> > >> I think it's a good start.
> >> > >>
> >> > >> Actually I have solved all the 3-layer puzzles in Magic Tile=
except Dodecagonal 12-color, which is buggy on my computer. But I solved t=
hem when saving log was not available. I believe many people have solved th=
e easier ones and nobody knows who's the first one to solve each puzzle (pr=
obably Roice is always the first one). What should we do about them? Should=
we only put the hard puzzles in this list?
> >> > >>
> >> > >> Nan
> >> > >>
> >> > >> --- In 4D_Cubing@yahoogroups.com, "Eduard"
> >> > >>> I have made a trial. Please comment or complete.
> >> >
> >>
>
From: Melinda Green <melinda@superliminal.com>
Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2011 12:19:53 -0800
Subject: Re: [MC4D] Re: MagicTile Extension in Superliminal/Wiki
--------------050505010106070800000802
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On 3/5/2011 4:58 PM, Roice Nelson wrote:
> On Sat, Mar 5, 2011 at 6:27 AM, Andrey wrote:
>
> What is interesting - to fing group that is generated by these
> permutations. It's easy, that spots are numbers from Z/23Z with
> "infinity" number, so that rotation of circle works like +1 or -1.
> Swapping is some fraction like P(x)/x (or P(x)/Q(x), where
> Q(0)=0), and I'm trying to find it. Their hint says that it may be
> about some object in 5 dimensions, but I don't see it now.
>
>
> I didn't fully follow this, but the puzzle permutations are based on
> the Mathieu group
> (as described in the Scientific American article about this puzzle).
> Is that what you were trying to uncover? Or maybe you are trying to
> find a polytope representation of the group structure? It was
> surprising to learn just now that M24 can be constructed starting from
> the symmetries of the Klein Quartic, then augmenting by one additional
> permutation, as described here
>
>
This is fascinating! Within the Wikipedia section you referenced is a
link for "coloring the triangles" that gives this tiling
I've been trying to construct a physical {3,7} using Polydron but I
haven't yet figured out the color mapping.
-Melinda
--------------050505010106070800000802
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http-equiv="Content-Type">
On 3/5/2011 4:58 PM, Roice Nelson wrote:
type="cite">
Andrey wrote:
What is interesting - to fing group that
is generated by these permutations. It's easy, that spots are
numbers from Z/23Z with "infinity" number, so that rotation of
circle works like +1 or -1. Swapping is some fraction like
P(x)/x (or P(x)/Q(x), where Q(0)=0), and I'm trying to find
it. Their hint says that it may be about some object in 5
dimensions, but I don't see it now.
based on the href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathieu_group_M24">Mathieu
group M24 (as described in the Scientific American
article about this puzzle). Is that what you were trying to
uncover? Or maybe you are trying to find a polytope
representation of the group structure? It was surprising to
learn just now that M24 can be constructed starting from the
symmetries of the Klein Quartic, then augmenting by one
additional permutation, as described
href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathieu_group_M24#Polyhedral_symmetries">here.
This is fascinating! Within the Wikipedia section you referenced is
a link for "coloring the triangles" that gives
tiling. I've been trying to construct a physical {3,7} using
Polydron but I haven't yet figured out the color mapping.
-Melinda
--------------050505010106070800000802--