Thread: "Siamese"

From: Melinda Green <melinda@superliminal.com>
Date: Sat, 16 Oct 2010 23:07:49 -0700
Subject: Re: Siamese



On 10/16/2010 7:05 PM, jasmon brian wrote:
> Hey Melinda, It's Jon,
> I finished the siamese hypercube. I started with a solved 3^4 and=20
> scrambled the red and blue sides for 100 twists as random as I could.=20
> I then solved the puzzle from there, turning only the red and blue=20
> sides. I attached the file for consideration.
> I would also like to suggest that you edit your program to be workable=20
> with other bandaged hypercubes! Even having the program not=20
> scramble/twist certain sides, at request, would be nice.
> Jon Scott

Jon,

That was a really clever exercise! I hope you don't mind that I'm=20
including the rests of the group on this thread so that other interested=20
puzzlers can also offer new insights and suggestions.

Regarding additions to MC4D, I try to keep out all features that require=20
coding for special case puzzles, so if we were to add the ability to=20
bandage cubes, then we need to make sure that it's possible to bandage=20
any puzzle. The main question then becomes a UI design problem of how to=20
most naturally describe such a puzzle, and to a lessor degree, how to=20
display the bandaging. Right now we describe puzzles by giving a=20
Schl=E4fli symbol plus an edge length. To add bandaging constraints I=20
expect would mean adding a third, optional chunk of information to=20
describe how you want it bandaged. I can't think of an obvious and=20
general way to do that, but I'd guess that there are probably ways to do=20
that having to do with face numbers.

Another thing people could do right now would be to create a bunch of=20
interesting scrambled versions of different bandaged puzzles just like=20
you did for this one. The process is a little tedious but only needs to=20
be done once for any particular configuration. From there people can=20
just use these hand-created scrambles and simply avoid twisting any of=20
the forbidden faces. That won't cover all possible bandagings but should=20
be good enough to have fun exploring quite a few interesting ones. So=20
that others can get the full effect, here is what your log file looks=20
like with only your scrambling twists considered to be fully scrambled:

MagicCube4D 3 2 0 {4,3,3} 3
-0.7781653457506625 0.312535051866865 -0.54477567495927 2.925835719544026E-=
9
0.6274075122099996 0.426340681158958 -0.651608346486887=20
-3.525863967809649E-16
-0.02860958397480492 0.8488553851767048 0.5278503829318464=20
7.375303054792201E-18
-2.276784185734973E-9 9.144260743002593E-10 -1.5939238952932422E-9 -1.0
*
100,1,1 206,1,1 100,1,1 194,1,1 103,1,1 207,1,1 105,1,1 214,1,1 95,1,1=20
194,1,1
105,-1,1 202,1,1 105,1,1 214,1,1 87,-1,1 207,1,1 105,1,1 207,1,1 105,1,1=20
212,1,1
105,1,1 214,1,1 105,1,1 207,1,1 87,1,1 194,1,1 87,1,1 196,1,1 105,1,1=20
207,1,1
83,1,1 205,1,1 105,1,1 202,1,1 102,1,1 210,1,1 81,1,1 202,1,1 103,1,1=20
210,1,1
98,1,1 210,1,1 87,1,1 210,1,1 87,1,1 207,1,1 105,1,1 207,1,1 100,1,1 194,1,=
1
87,1,1 207,1,1 100,1,1 212,1,1 100,1,1 212,1,1 105,1,1 212,1,1 105,1,1=20
212,1,1
87,-1,1 202,-1,1 98,-1,1 202,1,1 98,1,1 190,1,1 105,1,1 212,1,1 105,1,1=20
212,1,1
105,1,1 207,1,1 105,1,1 202,1,1 105,1,1 194,1,1 105,1,1 205,1,1 105,1,1=20
195,1,1
105,1,1 210,1,1 103,1,1 212,1,1 105,1,1 212,1,1 105,-1,1 202,-1,1=20
103,-1,1 207,1,1
105,1,1 207,1,1 100,1,1 206,1,1 100,1,1 194,1,1 87,1,1 206,1,1 100,1,1=20
205,1,1
m|.

Neat stuff Jon. Thanks for sharing this.
-Melinda




From: Klaus Weidinger <klaus.weidinger@yahoo.com>
Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 14:29:00 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: [MC4D] Re: Siamese



--0-1948158902-1287437340=:18428
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi everyone,

When you talk about bandaged cubes I always have to think
of Ultimate Magic Cube. This seems to exactly fit your purposes,
just with one dimension too few. I'm not a good programmer, so
I might not be the right person to judge, but I think it shouldn't be
too hard to convert the math and programming logic behind the
interface into 4D. However, I do expect it to be hard to integrate
this into MC4D and the current user interface. What do you think
about this?

Happy Hypercubing, Klaus




________________________________
From: Melinda Green
To: jasmon brian
Cc: MagicCube4D <4D_Cubing@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sun, October 17, 2010 8:07:49 AM
Subject: [MC4D] Re: Siamese

=20=20
On 10/16/2010 7:05 PM, jasmon brian wrote:
> Hey Melinda, It's Jon,
> I finished the siamese hypercube. I started with a solved 3^4 and=20
> scrambled the red and blue sides for 100 twists as random as I could.=20
> I then solved the puzzle from there, turning only the red and blue=20
> sides. I attached the file for consideration.
> I would also like to suggest that you edit your program to be workable=20
> with other bandaged hypercubes! Even having the program not=20
> scramble/twist certain sides, at request, would be nice.
> Jon Scott

Jon,

That was a really clever exercise! I hope you don't mind that I'm=20
including the rests of the group on this thread so that other interested=20
puzzlers can also offer new insights and suggestions.

Regarding additions to MC4D, I try to keep out all features that require=20
coding for special case puzzles, so if we were to add the ability to=20
bandage cubes, then we need to make sure that it's possible to bandage=20
any puzzle. The main question then becomes a UI design problem of how to=20
most naturally describe such a puzzle, and to a lessor degree, how to=20
display the bandaging. Right now we describe puzzles by giving a=20
Schl=C3=A4fli symbol plus an edge length. To add bandaging constraints I=20
expect would mean adding a third, optional chunk of information to=20
describe how you want it bandaged. I can't think of an obvious and=20
general way to do that, but I'd guess that there are probably ways to do=20
that having to do with face numbers.

Another thing people could do right now would be to create a bunch of=20
interesting scrambled versions of different bandaged puzzles just like=20
you did for this one. The process is a little tedious but only needs to=20
be done once for any particular configuration. From there people can=20
just use these hand-created scrambles and simply avoid twisting any of=20
the forbidden faces. That won't cover all possible bandagings but should=20
be good enough to have fun exploring quite a few interesting ones. So=20
that others can get the full effect, here is what your log file looks=20
like with only your scrambling twists considered to be fully scrambled:

MagicCube4D 3 2 0 {4,3,3} 3
-0.7781653457506625 0.312535051866865 -0.54477567495927 2.925835719544026E-=
9
0.6274075122099996 0.426340681158958 -0.651608346486887=20
-3.525863967809649E-16
-0.02860958397480492 0.8488553851767048 0.5278503829318464=20
7.375303054792201E-18
-2.276784185734973E-9 9.144260743002593E-10 -1.5939238952932422E-9 -1.0
*
100,1,1 206,1,1 100,1,1 194,1,1 103,1,1 207,1,1 105,1,1 214,1,1 95,1,1=20
194,1,1
105,-1,1 202,1,1 105,1,1 214,1,1 87,-1,1 207,1,1 105,1,1 207,1,1 105,1,1=20
212,1,1
105,1,1 214,1,1 105,1,1 207,1,1 87,1,1 194,1,1 87,1,1 196,1,1 105,1,1=20
207,1,1
83,1,1 205,1,1 105,1,1 202,1,1 102,1,1 210,1,1 81,1,1 202,1,1 103,1,1=20
210,1,1
98,1,1 210,1,1 87,1,1 210,1,1 87,1,1 207,1,1 105,1,1 207,1,1 100,1,1 194,1,=
1
87,1,1 207,1,1 100,1,1 212,1,1 100,1,1 212,1,1 105,1,1 212,1,1 105,1,1=20
212,1,1
87,-1,1 202,-1,1 98,-1,1 202,1,1 98,1,1 190,1,1 105,1,1 212,1,1 105,1,1=20
212,1,1
105,1,1 207,1,1 105,1,1 202,1,1 105,1,1 194,1,1 105,1,1 205,1,1 105,1,1=20
195,1,1
105,1,1 210,1,1 103,1,1 212,1,1 105,1,1 212,1,1 105,-1,1 202,-1,1=20
103,-1,1 207,1,1
105,1,1 207,1,1 100,1,1 206,1,1 100,1,1 194,1,1 87,1,1 206,1,1 100,1,1=20
205,1,1
m|.

Neat stuff Jon. Thanks for sharing this.
-Melinda

=20


=20=20=20=20=20=20
--0-1948158902-1287437340=:18428
Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

ad>

t-size:12pt">
Hi everyone,

When you talk about bandaged cubes I =
always have to think
of Ultimate Magic Cube. This seems to exactly fit y=
our purposes,
just with one dimension too few. I'm not a good programmer=
, so
I might not be the right person to judge, but I think it shouldn't =
be
too hard to convert the math and programming logic behind the
inte=
rface into 4D. However, I do expect it to be hard to integrate
this into=
MC4D and the current user interface. What do you think
about this?
<=
br>Happy Hypercubing, Klaus
oman,new york,times,serif; font-size: 12pt;">
: 5px; margin: 5px 0px 5px 5px; border-left: 2px solid rgb(16, 16, 255); fo=
nt-family: times new roman,new york,times,serif; font-size: 12pt;"> face=3D"Tahoma" size=3D"2">
old;">From: Melinda Green <melinda@superliminal.com>
>To: jasmon brian <joebria=
n.jasmon@gmail.com>
Cc:<=
/b> MagicCube4D <4D_Cubing@yahoogroups.com>
-weight: bold;">Sent: Sun, October 17, 2010 8:07:49 AM
an style=3D"font-weight: bold;">Subject: [MC4D] Re: Siamese
<=
/font>








 




=20=20=20=20=20=20
=20=20=20=20=20=20

On 10/16/2010 7:05 PM, jasmon brian wrote:

> Hey Melinda, It's Jon,

> I finished the siamese hypercube. I started with a solved 3^4 and

> scrambled the red and blue sides for 100 twists as random as I could. =


> I then solved the puzzle from there, turning only the red and blue >
> sides. I attached the file for consideration.

> I would also like to suggest that you edit your program to be workable=


> with other bandaged hypercubes! Even having the program not

> scramble/twist certain sides, at request, would be nice.

> Jon Scott



Jon,



That was a really clever exercise! I hope you don't mind that I'm

including the rests of the group on this thread so that other interested r>
puzzlers can also offer new insights and suggestions.



Regarding additions to MC4D, I try to keep out all features that require r>
coding for special case puzzles, so if we were to add the ability to

bandage cubes, then we need to make sure that it's possible to bandage

any puzzle. The main question then becomes a UI design problem of how to r>
most naturally describe such a puzzle, and to a lessor degree, how to

display the bandaging. Right now we describe puzzles by giving a

Schl=C3=A4fli symbol plus an edge length. To add bandaging constraints I r>
expect would mean adding a third, optional chunk of information to

describe how you want it bandaged. I can't think of an obvious and

general way to do that, but I'd guess that there are probably ways to do r>
that having to do with face numbers.



Another thing people could do right now would be to create a bunch of

interesting scrambled versions of different bandaged puzzles just like

you did for this one. The process is a little tedious but only needs to >
be done once for any particular configuration. From there people can

just use these hand-created scrambles and simply avoid twisting any of

the forbidden faces. That won't cover all possible bandagings but should r>
be good enough to have fun exploring quite a few interesting ones. So

that others can get the full effect, here is what your log file looks

like with only your scrambling twists considered to be fully scrambled:



MagicCube4D 3 2 0 {4,3,3} 3

-0.7781653457506625 0.312535051866865 -0.54477567495927 2.925835719544026E-=
9

0.6274075122099996 0.426340681158958 -0.651608346486887

-3.525863967809649E-16

-0.02860958397480492 0.8488553851767048 0.5278503829318464

7.375303054792201E-18

-2.276784185734973E-9 9.144260743002593E-10 -1.5939238952932422E-9 -1.0

*

100,1,1 206,1,1 100,1,1 194,1,1 103,1,1 207,1,1 105,1,1 214,1,1 95,1,1

194,1,1

105,-1,1 202,1,1 105,1,1 214,1,1 87,-1,1 207,1,1 105,1,1 207,1,1 105,1,1 r>
212,1,1

105,1,1 214,1,1 105,1,1 207,1,1 87,1,1 194,1,1 87,1,1 196,1,1 105,1,1

207,1,1

83,1,1 205,1,1 105,1,1 202,1,1 102,1,1 210,1,1 81,1,1 202,1,1 103,1,1

210,1,1

98,1,1 210,1,1 87,1,1 210,1,1 87,1,1 207,1,1 105,1,1 207,1,1 100,1,1 194,1,=
1

87,1,1 207,1,1 100,1,1 212,1,1 100,1,1 212,1,1 105,1,1 212,1,1 105,1,1

212,1,1

87,-1,1 202,-1,1 98,-1,1 202,1,1 98,1,1 190,1,1 105,1,1 212,1,1 105,1,1 >
212,1,1

105,1,1 207,1,1 105,1,1 202,1,1 105,1,1 194,1,1 105,1,1 205,1,1 105,1,1 >
195,1,1

105,1,1 210,1,1 103,1,1 212,1,1 105,1,1 212,1,1 105,-1,1 202,-1,1

103,-1,1 207,1,1

105,1,1 207,1,1 100,1,1 206,1,1 100,1,1 194,1,1 87,1,1 206,1,1 100,1,1

205,1,1

m|.



Neat stuff Jon. Thanks for sharing this.

-Melinda




=20=20=20=20=20















--0-1948158902-1287437340=:18428--




From: "schuma" <mananself@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 22:51:28 -0000
Subject: Re: Siamese



Hi everyone,

Another type of constraints other than the bandaging is to restrict the rot=
ation of a cell from the original octahedral group to a certain subgroup. F=
or example, one possible rule is: in every step, it is not allowed to make =
90 degree turns around face centers or 180 degree turns around edge pieces.=
Only 180 degree turns around face centers or 120 degree turns around corne=
rs are allowed. This rule restrict the possible rotations of a cell from th=
e octahedral group down to the tetrahedral group. I don't know if there is =
a universal UI design that works for all the shapes in MC4D. But this type =
of restriction is mathematically more appealing to me, because it preserves=
more symmetry than bandaging. The 3D analog in a 3x3x3 Rubik's Cube is to =
allow only 180 degree face turns for each face.=20

Nan

--- In 4D_Cubing@yahoogroups.com, Melinda Green wrote:
>
> On 10/16/2010 7:05 PM, jasmon brian wrote:
> > Hey Melinda, It's Jon,
> > I finished the siamese hypercube. I started with a solved 3^4 and=20
> > scrambled the red and blue sides for 100 twists as random as I could.=20
> > I then solved the puzzle from there, turning only the red and blue=20
> > sides. I attached the file for consideration.
> > I would also like to suggest that you edit your program to be workable=
=20
> > with other bandaged hypercubes! Even having the program not=20
> > scramble/twist certain sides, at request, would be nice.
> > Jon Scott
>=20
> Jon,
>=20
> That was a really clever exercise! I hope you don't mind that I'm=20
> including the rests of the group on this thread so that other interested=
=20
> puzzlers can also offer new insights and suggestions.
>=20
> Regarding additions to MC4D, I try to keep out all features that require=
=20
> coding for special case puzzles, so if we were to add the ability to=20
> bandage cubes, then we need to make sure that it's possible to bandage=20
> any puzzle. The main question then becomes a UI design problem of how to=
=20
> most naturally describe such a puzzle, and to a lessor degree, how to=20
> display the bandaging. Right now we describe puzzles by giving a=20
> Schl=E4fli symbol plus an edge length. To add bandaging constraints I=20
> expect would mean adding a third, optional chunk of information to=20
> describe how you want it bandaged. I can't think of an obvious and=20
> general way to do that, but I'd guess that there are probably ways to do=
=20
> that having to do with face numbers.
>=20
> Another thing people could do right now would be to create a bunch of=20
> interesting scrambled versions of different bandaged puzzles just like=20
> you did for this one. The process is a little tedious but only needs to=20
> be done once for any particular configuration. From there people can=20
> just use these hand-created scrambles and simply avoid twisting any of=20
> the forbidden faces. That won't cover all possible bandagings but should=
=20
> be good enough to have fun exploring quite a few interesting ones. So=20
> that others can get the full effect, here is what your log file looks=20
> like with only your scrambling twists considered to be fully scrambled:
>=20
> MagicCube4D 3 2 0 {4,3,3} 3
> -0.7781653457506625 0.312535051866865 -0.54477567495927 2.925835719544026=
E-9
> 0.6274075122099996 0.426340681158958 -0.651608346486887=20
> -3.525863967809649E-16
> -0.02860958397480492 0.8488553851767048 0.5278503829318464=20
> 7.375303054792201E-18
> -2.276784185734973E-9 9.144260743002593E-10 -1.5939238952932422E-9 -1.0
> *
> 100,1,1 206,1,1 100,1,1 194,1,1 103,1,1 207,1,1 105,1,1 214,1,1 95,1,1=20
> 194,1,1
> 105,-1,1 202,1,1 105,1,1 214,1,1 87,-1,1 207,1,1 105,1,1 207,1,1 105,1,1=
=20
> 212,1,1
> 105,1,1 214,1,1 105,1,1 207,1,1 87,1,1 194,1,1 87,1,1 196,1,1 105,1,1=20
> 207,1,1
> 83,1,1 205,1,1 105,1,1 202,1,1 102,1,1 210,1,1 81,1,1 202,1,1 103,1,1=20
> 210,1,1
> 98,1,1 210,1,1 87,1,1 210,1,1 87,1,1 207,1,1 105,1,1 207,1,1 100,1,1 194,=
1,1
> 87,1,1 207,1,1 100,1,1 212,1,1 100,1,1 212,1,1 105,1,1 212,1,1 105,1,1=20
> 212,1,1
> 87,-1,1 202,-1,1 98,-1,1 202,1,1 98,1,1 190,1,1 105,1,1 212,1,1 105,1,1=20
> 212,1,1
> 105,1,1 207,1,1 105,1,1 202,1,1 105,1,1 194,1,1 105,1,1 205,1,1 105,1,1=20
> 195,1,1
> 105,1,1 210,1,1 103,1,1 212,1,1 105,1,1 212,1,1 105,-1,1 202,-1,1=20
> 103,-1,1 207,1,1
> 105,1,1 207,1,1 100,1,1 206,1,1 100,1,1 194,1,1 87,1,1 206,1,1 100,1,1=20
> 205,1,1
> m|.
>=20
> Neat stuff Jon. Thanks for sharing this.
> -Melinda
>





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